[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[CTPhipps]

Nowhere it is 100% stated she's a pawn of something, let alone an Antediluvian. It's not even sure why she got killed in 2003 in the first place. The same is said about her impostor who got killed a dozen years later.
It's one of the suggestion to STs. I personally prefer Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli involvement over good old "Jyhad pawn".

I love her being Toreador too rather than 'yet another Keeper', but what's the connection between being a Toreador and being an Ante's pawn?

I'm referring to Shaitan. He's a 4th generation vampire of multiple millennia age. Like being a pawn of Ur-Shulgi, it's a perfect representation of being a slave to the Jyhad even if it's not a slave to one of the 3rd generation directly.

I hope Lucita does not. It contradicts her personality.

You mean Lucita's personality of being an impossible to oppress or control woman raging against her sire? A sire who effectively helped FOUND the Sabbat and its entire culture? A woman who spent centuries away from any sect because she refused to conform?

That woman certainly DOES look like someone who would never be an Anarch.

[Val_Nir]

Yeah, I was highlighting one Regent believed the exact opposite and was a pawn of the Antediluvians. I always liked that she was a Toreador Antitribu.

Nowhere it is 100% stated she's a pawn of something, let alone an Antediluvian. It's not even sure why she got killed in 2003 in the first place. The same is said about her impostor who got killed a dozen years later.
It's one of the suggestion to STs. I personally prefer Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli involvement over good old "Jyhad pawn".

I love her being Toreador too rather than 'yet another Keeper', but what's the connection between being a Toreador and being an Ante's pawn?

[Val_Nir]

I hope Lucita joins the Anarchs so my vote for head of the Sabbat is Vykos.

End the Lasombra tyranny!

I hope Lucita does not. It contradicts her personality. I bet she and Sandoze are in MENA too, making sure the sect does not loose itself into berserk rage completely, playing a counterweight to Polonia's single-minded zeal.
Sanya Vykos is not a fitting leader, he's reluctant in BJD to even participate in the regency debates. He's an embodiment of Fiends' aloofness when it comes to politics. Someone had to break the mold, and I wish it hadn't been her/him.
It was never a tyranny, to be honest. If Fiends wanted to, they'd surely posed a threat to Lasombra dominance; they did, several times throughout the sect's history. However, during the course of the 20th century, they tended to give as few hecks about political power as possible. Elders gone further into seclusion and research, neonates descended further into pointless barbarism. A sad state of things, if you ask me.
I wish we had more of the likes of Vova Rustovitch and his progeny.

[CTPhipps]

I hope Lucita joins the Anarchs so my vote for head of the Sabbat is Vykos.

End the Lasombra tyranny!

Either that or just make Jalan the Regent of the Sabbat. He's disappeared and probably Beckoned but it's not like that makes him any different from any other Gehenna Crusader.

this isn't a response to anything I said, is it?

Yeah, I was highlighting one Regent believed the exact opposite and was a pawn of the Antediluvians. I always liked that she was a Toreador Antitribu.

[Val_Nir]

I was more of a Jolan guy,
slow down the crusades, give more power to tzimisce (I actually hope v5 will have the sabbat ruled by the Tzim)

but now that she's been retconned (I think?)...I don't know, Lucita maybe?
I'd have to re-read BJD to give a definitive answer

Y E S. I've always disliked Lasombra leadership. Not only it.

I never understood why the main 'darker' Vampire sect is dominated by Hispanic/Latin/Catholic references when the sect itself originated in Eastern Europe. I remain a stalwart supporter or either completely replacing Keepers with Fiends as Sabbat leaders, or at least making it an even thing.

In the same way, I'd be happy to see Hispanic/Latin/Catholic cultural references be balanced out with much, much more Slavic/Orthodox/Pagan flavor than what we had previously, and a switch of focus from temporal power (sieges, crusades, politics - Lasombra stuff) to spiritual (ideology, occult, research - Tzimisce).

Yes, there is not a mention of Jolan in the BJD, strangely. That's why I suppose her to be replaced with Lucita. I wish they bring the Mother of Horrors back.

[Val_Nir]

On a related, but side note, where was it put out that Polonia went away to fight the Gehenna War? I can understand the assumption, but I also haven't seen that anywhere canon, but I admit I haven't read everything.

Polonia is it's main advocate in Beckett's Jyhad Diary. The whole Sabbat part of the book is about the new Regency. He's one of the main claimants and he presses the most hardcore Sabbat party line forward. Gehenna is here, Ancients are rising in Middle east, time for the final showdown. I'm kinda close to him on the whole thing, personally, although I'd rather wage it not so overtly and would prefer cainites like Jalan-Aajav at the helm of the war effort.

I strongly recommend BJD as an ultimate metaplot book which basically sets the stage for V5. Other than that, they did an oustanding effort in clearing up almost every major and minor storyline of the VtM metaplot since 1991. It's an amazing read.

[Pleiades]

Me too.

By the way, Pleiades , whom would you love to see as Regent? and how would Sabbat go if we take BJD as starting point for new plot?

I was more of a Jolan guy,
slow down the crusades, give more power to tzimisce (I actually hope v5 will have the sabbat ruled by the Tzim)

but now that she's been retconned (I think?)...I don't know, Lucita maybe?
I'd have to re-read BJD to give a definitive answer

[higgipedia]

On a related, but side note, where was it put out that Polonia went away to fight the Gehenna War? I can understand the assumption, but I also haven't seen that anywhere canon, but I admit I haven't read everything.

[Val_Nir]

man, I miss the good old days of Noddist elders bickering

Me too.

By the way, Pleiades , whom would you love to see as Regent? and how would Sabbat go if we take BJD as starting point for new plot?

[Val_Nir]

The systems and themes of V5 so far give me very little hope, put it that way

There are some possibilities and outcomes for Sabbat and other elements of the old VtM I liked which, if introduced in future books, would severely disappoint me and then I would join you in your grief. Until then, I'd rather keep some hope.
Cheers.

[Taggie]

Oh sure, Gehenna 2004, in which the Sabbat got either crushed, had to make peace with Camarilla, merge into a new sect, or got munched by Antes.
The movement of metaplot forward is a good thing, and as of now we know too little of what's exactly happening in gehenna war to say the sect been 'thrown away'. As I said already, you see a failure, I see an opportunity. Until any V5 book explicitly, literally says in huge letters specifically for those who love to misinterpret things, "SABBAT'S DEAD, BABY. SABBAT'S DEAD" all of our speculations are just speculations.
But of course, you do you.

The systems and themes of V5 so far give me very little hope, put it that way

[Val_Nir]

End of VtM was Gehenna, it got retconned for Revised, after that we got some excuse plot to throw away the interesting parts of the setting to clear the way for the anarch focus of V5

Oh sure, Gehenna 2004, in which the Sabbat got either crushed, had to make peace with Camarilla, merge into a new sect, or got munched by Antes.
The movement of metaplot forward is a good thing, and as of now we know too little of what's exactly happening in gehenna war to say the sect been 'thrown away'. As I said already, you see a failure, I see an opportunity. Until any V5 book explicitly, literally says in huge letters specifically for those who love to misinterpret things, "SABBAT'S DEAD, BABY. SABBAT'S DEAD" all of our speculations are just speculations.
But of course, you do you.

[Val_Nir]

To be fair, Melinda showed that at least one Regent was directly under the control of a near-Antediluvian because the Jyhad never been on sectarian lines. The Anarchs, Camarilla, and Sabbat are all just gamepieces fo the Ancients,.

Of course they are. Nothing in the setting, however, forbids some semblance of hope of getting through their plots and schemes and forging your own path (or becoming another puppeteer yourself). That's the whole premise of WoD. "It's extremely easy to lose and extremely difficult to win. But not impossible."

[Val_Nir]

actually, those leaders did believe in their own propaganda,
it was specifically stated that, past the sectarian conflicts and the blood feuds, the elders sought to eliminate the methuselah protected by the Cam or at least cripple them by weakening/converting their pawns

it wasn't a view shared by all, and was a point of contention between the elders and their divergent views on how to handle the ancients threat,

the whole point of having a regent was to address that divergence,
since the resources were limited, and the elders couldn't agree on how to handle things,
the most powerful of them would take the decision (and would take the post of regent)

if you check Mexico by Night, the candidates for regency were all devoted to the cause, but while one of them believed that the crusade on the cam was the way,
the other two had their own different vision,
neither of them were trying to "divert younger members of the sect",
and whichever won the war for regency would decide if the sabbat should go maintain the war with the cam or...launch a space program or something

man, I miss the good old days of Noddist elders bickering

If I did believe Sabbat elite to be all hypocrites to the last one, I wouldn't play Sabbat at all. My point was to remind that 1) braindead shovelheads and power-hungry Lasombra upstarts had to be directed at something while adults are conveying proper strategies - without a semblance of a real threat, the sect would quickly turn on itself - that's implied in virtually all Sabbat Revised-era books; 2) once the real threat appeared, once the Ancients, methuselahs and elders showed up as overtly as it's possible in WoD 21st century, there was no point in playing the whole contest game between hardcore and liberal parties of the sect. Engaging them indirectly (attacking Cam), undermining their power through crusades and sieges became pointless once the Puppetteers showed their ugly mugs in MENA themselves.

I bet Polonia and other 'hawkish' Sabbat managed to win the masses over the 'rationale' Sabbat like Touraine, Vasantasena and Lucita, after all. Szechenyi Jolan was not even mentioned among Regency contesters in Beckett's Jyhad Diary, sadly.

neither of them were trying to "divert younger members of the sect",

You misunderstood my point. "Manipulating younger members of the sect" never exludes "genuinely believing the Ancients must be stopped". Some regent candidates are less into it, like Touraine or Jolan (Lucita, in BJD). Some, like Delmare, are very much into it.

[Taggie]

Lol what? You're repeating in-game Sabbat leaders propaganda used by them to focus the bloodlust of young members of the sect not on them. There was no gehenna, those were turf wars on the continent scale, simple as that. When the real shit hit the fan, it was a true test of faith for Sabbat leaders. Some failed (stayed in NA, defected etc) some didn't and are now fulfilling the ultimate goal or at least try to fulfill.

If you say whats happening in the world end of V20/V5 is not gehenna, it is crystal clear now you didn't read BJD.

End of VtM was Gehenna, it got retconned for Revised, after that we got some excuse plot to throw away the interesting parts of the setting to clear the way for the anarch focus of V5