[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[Pleiades]

To be fair, Melinda showed that at least one Regent was directly under the control of a near-Antediluvian because the Jyhad never been on sectarian lines. The Anarchs, Camarilla, and Sabbat are all just gamepieces fo the Ancients,.

this isn't a response to anything I said, is it?

[CTPhipps]

if you check Mexico by Night, the candidates for regency were all devoted to the cause, but while one of them believed that the crusade on the cam was the way,
the other two had their own different vision,
neither of them were trying to "divert younger members of the sect",
and whichever won the war for regency would decide if the sabbat should go maintain the war with the cam or...launch a space program or something

man, I miss the good old days of Noddist elders bickering

To be fair, Melinda showed that at least one Regent was directly under the control of a near-Antediluvian because the Jyhad never been on sectarian lines. The Anarchs, Camarilla, and Sabbat are all just gamepieces fo the Ancients,.

[Pleiades]

Lol what? You're repeating in-game Sabbat leaders propaganda used by them to focus the bloodlust of young members of the sect not on them.

actually, those leaders did believe in their own propaganda,
it was specifically stated that, past the sectarian conflicts and the blood feuds, the elders sought to eliminate the methuselah protected by the Cam or at least cripple them by weakening/converting their pawns

it wasn't a view shared by all, and was a point of contention between the elders and their divergent views on how to handle the ancients threat,

the whole point of having a regent was to address that divergence,
since the resources were limited, and the elders couldn't agree on how to handle things,
the most powerful of them would take the decision (and would take the post of regent)

if you check Mexico by Night, the candidates for regency were all devoted to the cause, but while one of them believed that the crusade on the cam was the way,
the other two had their own different vision,
neither of them were trying to "divert younger members of the sect",
and whichever won the war for regency would decide if the sabbat should go maintain the war with the cam or...launch a space program or something

man, I miss the good old days of Noddist elders bickering

[Val_Nir]

Gehenna was being fought, the destruction of the Camarilla and Anarchs was the necessary first step. until and unless that is achieved digging in the desert is pointless.

Lol what? You're repeating in-game Sabbat leaders propaganda used by them to focus the bloodlust of young members of the sect not on them. There was no gehenna, those were turf wars on the continent scale, simple as that. When the real shit hit the fan, it was a true test of faith for Sabbat leaders. Some failed (stayed in NA, defected etc) some didn't and are now fulfilling the ultimate goal or at least try to fulfill.

If you say whats happening in the world end of V20/V5 is not gehenna, it is crystal clear now you didn't read BJD.

[CTPhipps]

Gehenna was being fought, the destruction of the Camarilla and Anarchs was the necessary first step. until and unless that is achieved digging in the desert is pointless.

Also we aren't gettin gehenna, we are getting 'shuffle off everything inconvenient to the ME, make some ham fisted current affairs foreign policy analogies, and then let the super kewl anarchs fill the breach, and hoover up extra members and territories because they are the bestest.

I thought it was explicit that the Sabbat fighting the Camarilla and Anarchs was a distraction from their true mission. The Sabbat had gotten caught up in secretarian wars that were ultimately pointless.

Mind you, part of what I liked about the Sabbat was its hypocrisies to go alongside the fact it was right the Ancients were the real danger.

[Taggie]

It is amusing that Sabbat fans wish the Sword of Caine, the Great army of Gehenna to sit out Gehenna. Really, they left a bunch of places. There are still Sabbat domains as of Blood gods. A bunch of cities got swapped around. That you probably didn't play in and didn't matter much. The Sabbat are the most complicated part of Vampire to get right. You need to have everything else standing so you can have Antitribu at the very least.

So the Sabbat will be back from Crusades, with lost knowledge that they totally didn't have before stolen from the ancients(much like the European IRL crusaders bringing back algebra) they as the last faction that comes into play before say something like the true hand will get a heaping dose of power creep and inevitably V5 early adopters will be screaming how broken the Sabbat is, with the justification being the battle hardened crusaders need to be this badass to survive.

Gehenna was being fought, the destruction of the Camarilla and Anarchs was the necessary first step. until and unless that is achieved digging in the desert is pointless.

Also we aren't gettin gehenna, we are getting 'shuffle off everything inconvenient to the ME, make some ham fisted current affairs foreign policy analogies, and then let the super kewl anarchs fill the breach, and hoover up extra members and territories because they are the bestest.

[Val_Nir]

It is amusing that Sabbat fans wish the Sword of Caine, the Great army of Gehenna to sit out Gehenna. Really, they left a bunch of places. There are still Sabbat domains as of Blood gods. A bunch of cities got swapped around. That you probably didn't play in and didn't matter much. The Sabbat are the most complicated part of Vampire to get right. You need to have everything else standing so you can have Antitribu at the very least.

So the Sabbat will be back from Crusades, with lost knowledge that they totally didn't have before stolen from the ancients(much like the European IRL crusaders bringing back algebra) they as the last faction that comes into play before say something like the true hand will get a heaping dose of power creep and inevitably V5 early adopters will be screaming how broken the Sabbat is, with the justification being the battle hardened crusaders need to be this badass to survive.

10/10. Nicely put. Very, very close to my personal view on their introduction. not sure they'll make them THAT powerful, but we'll see. An obvious downside would be drastically reduced numbers and the need to go as covert as possible, the thing which old Sabbat was not particularly known for, and a change I would welcome, personally.

[Val_Nir]

This.

Sabbat became impossible so, their solution was put Sabbat on a bus and never have to worry with this game hole anymore.

If any Sabbat player is reading this: v5 developers don't want you playing v5.

Lmao. Thanks, but I'd rather wait for them to officially say it and wait for its introduction anyway. And yes, it's a positive thread, unless taking posts like yours into account.
I really don't understand that whining choir 'V5 is not VTM' enthusiasm.

[Taggie]

AH the No True Sabbat argument.

Explain please. We have a system that doesn't support them and lore that is salvaging them for parts while having the bits they don't want act like complete idiot's.

[Taggie]

My only real comment here is that I don't think anyone has left their Path in-universe. Vykos might have a Humanity score in V5 but she's still on the Path of Death and Soul. It's just measured differently.

It's not that they're getting rid of the Paths, it's just that they're now in-universe cults.

That's just my read at least.

My problem is that I cannot see the Tenets, Convictions and Touchstones systems actually supporting Paths. You get 3 convictions to encompass 10 sins plus the ethics of a path, it just doesn't map at all ( as stated it doesn't work for humanity either imo.)

[Lian]

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

AH the No True Sabbat argument.

[CTPhipps]

1)maybe, I don't see that as darker, than what we had before, different certainly, and hitting edgelording more publicly, (not going to say more often, because I don't think they really are, but they are doing so more openly) also I don't see how Hunger and Touchstones play up the beast more, but I despise both those rules so...

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

My only real comment here is that I don't think anyone has left their Path in-universe. Vykos might have a Humanity score in V5 but she's still on the Path of Death and Soul. It's just measured differently.

It's not that they're getting rid of the Paths, it's just that they're now in-universe cults.

That's just my read at least.

[Taggie]

1)The writing. It deals with mature issues and focuses on the conflict between Humanity and the Beast to a much greater degree than previous editions. The Second Inquisition is a constant threat that threatens vampires with issues of government surveillance as well as medical testing plus black site imprisonment. The Thin Bloods are also a much bigger role dealing with family, friends, persecution, and more.



2)I'm just saying the Sabbat doesn't seem to be gone. Its there or the Lasombra wouldn't have someone to defect from. They're not all in the Middle East.

1)maybe, I don't see that as darker, than what we had before, different certainly, and hitting edgelording more publicly, (not going to say more often, because I don't think they really are, but they are doing so more openly) also I don't see how Hunger and Touchstones play up the beast more, but I despise both those rules so...

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

[CTPhipps]

It is not obviously a darker setting, in face I can't see how you reach the conclusion that it is.

The writing. It deals with mature issues and focuses on the conflict between Humanity and the Beast to a much greater degree than previous editions. The Second Inquisition is a constant threat that threatens vampires with issues of government surveillance as well as medical testing plus black site imprisonment. The Thin Bloods are also a much bigger role dealing with family, friends, persecution, and more.

Also, being mentioned to that parts of the sect can be torn away to be given to other sects is not really playing a large role. On Fall of London, haven't read it so can't properly comment.

I'm just saying the Sabbat doesn't seem to be gone. Its there or the Lasombra wouldn't have someone to defect from. They're not all in the Middle East.

[Taggie]

Bluntly no, I don't think any of your descriptions make for a better Path player. The Path is about the PHILOSOPHY behind it. It's why I always preferred Roads. The Tenents and rules are less important than the mindset.

It's why I always preferred the Path of Caine and Path of Heaven.

Lore heavy and PHILOSOPHY heavy rather than tenants. It's about how you ROLEPLAY not what you roll.

I see paths as mapping onto a religious doctrine, something like the Nicean Creed, the more Orthodox you are on the Path the less power the beast holds but the more rigid your thinking and bound your actions are but the tenets of the Path, the conflict is between how of each form of servitude you are willing to endure, someone with path 10 is (for want of a better term) ultra orthodox, rigid in thought and predictable (you can use your knowledge of their path as a guide to what and why they will do things) someone at path 0 is obviously a Wight and equally predictable, they are animalistic predators with no sentient thought left. How you balance those forces for a specific character is where things get interesting,