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  • Arguing with mods about a topic told to be dropped.

    Take the day off.

    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-25-2021, 01:31 PM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

      Yeas, this was a sticking point for me as well. In game it goes come down to Technocratic arrogance and chauvinism. Out of game it is arguably a scaling issue - unless the game is set in Bangladesh, it is something that can be ignored.
      I mean if it was actually in the city, no matter how many are dead, it should be the end of the Masquerade period. Maybe you could handwave it if it was a particularly rural and unpopulated area but that's just silly.

      Still, killing millions of any people for your game is going to be notable. Why the Avengers created Sokovia.


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      • Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
        I think it helped immensely that there was a massive cyclone/typhoon hitting Bangladesh as part of the proceedings. It probably actually did cause the most deaths, and provided cover for the less natural ones as they were occurring (not that many calm witnesses out in driving rain, floods, and 100+ mph winds) and semi-plausible explanations in the aftermath.
        The typhoon is part of the problem, not of the solution.

        Natural disasters are more powerful than nuclear warheads. A regular hurricane delivers the equivalent to 10 megatons in 20 minutes, that is about 1.000 times the yield of a big Neutron Bomb (a bomb of greater yield will have a blast greater than the neutron spread and won't really count as a Neutron Bomb, the Bombs in Bangladesh probably had between 50% and 75% of the normal limit).

        But all hurricanes that hit the entirety of Bangladesh in the last 50 years killed, together, "little" more than 700k people. Most of them in a single event in the 70's that killed half a million, but since then the death toll of hurricanes there consistently diminished. By 1999 a single hurricane would hardly kill more than 2k people. The typhoon in the book killed around 1.3 million.

        Atomic bombs release a lot of other telltales that are impossible to cover so easily, but the magical typhoon is pretty much an uncoverable disaster in itself.

        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        I mean if it was actually in the city, no matter how many are dead, it should be the end of the Masquerade period. Maybe you could handwave it if it was a particularly rural and unpopulated area but that's just silly.
        Pretty much that. Even in a rural area, a typhoon big enough to kill more than a million is just the end of the secrecy.

        Chalking it up to Bangladesh's inability in keeping records, something they did in the book, is also extremely tasteless to say the least when we're talking about something this big. Or to say the world won't pay attention as if there was no country near Bangladesh or relying in trade with them in the first place. It is a statement that only makes sense from an absolutely ethnocentric POV given that Bangladesh is in the middle of the most populous area in the entire world.

        As with the V5, and apparently W5, books, my big problem here is with the "go big then go home" attitude. Instead of sticking to the decision of making big changes they do a huge event and then go back to business as usual. If you want to do the end of the world as we know it, go big or go home.


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        • Guess the Second Inquisition had no more reasons to sit around and say "ah, we don't even know if there is something out there". Besides, if we want to be apologetic, which I don't really want to (I prefer to just make the grand battle a bit smaller, farther from populations, and other alterations), but we can say that many governments did see all this and well, decided to put a bit more money in national security, with special parameters (hunt blankbodies), and by this it also means that the governments tried their best in covering up that whole thing. They could even say that in fact was a terrorist attack, and look good by putting money in security, while actually funding their part in the Second Inquisition "movement". That is how I would rationalize it, but I guess we will have to wait and see the coming book of V5 about SI to know if they will touch in the Week of Nightmares again or not.


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          • Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
            That is how I would rationalize it, but I guess we will have to wait and see the coming book of V5 about SI to know if they will touch in the Week of Nightmares again or not.
            My own take on the Week of Nightmares would depend on my plans for Gehenna:

            Go Big and Buy Time: kind of what they wanted for it, something unmistakable for whomever learned about it, but subtle enough just to not put the entire world on alarm for the next years. It would have to be somewhere uninhabited and on a somewhat lesser scale. Nothing undoable, Purbasha and Chhera islands fitted this description perfectly in Bangladesh and Purbasha had the added benefit of mystery as it appeared "out of nothingness" in 1970 due to a typhoon, is a disputed area on a geopolitical level (oil and mineral deposits) and is completely unstable anyways (so much so that it in fact disappeared in 2010).

            Reduce the scope a little, have a little more cooperation between the supernaturals on field, do not kill every Bodhisattva present (that'll only make the Ancients too obviously unkillable), add the Union worrying because it will be impossible to cover until they realize the "allied forces" are taking the beast to a deserted island, and for goodness' sake add native characters (preferably created by native players if at all possible). Oh, and eliminate the ridiculous notion of every mental health patient in the world going through the same sudden hallucinatory crisis at the same time. That's insensitive with them and with the competence of mental health professionals alike.

            The next years are a build-up for Gehenna and the involved in the "Bengal Incident" know the secret won't lie down forever. It will attract more players to the stage as governments and intelligence and paramilitary agencies of all kind learn about the incident, and eventually it will blow up.

            Go For It Big Time: run it mostly as described and screw the Masquerade. The world don't know what happens, but it is impossible to deny that something happened, and isolating the entire affected area is ridiculous. It is a catastrophe of surreal proportions and investigators from all around the world find weird stuff all the time no matter the efforts otherwise. The Union would have to abandon everything else to even have a chance, so no.

            Big "secrets" like the mere existence of the supernatural, vampires, werewolves and spirits go down in a matter of weeks as journalists gather information and evidence. The Masquerade still exists on an individual basis, for now. Hunters are as exposed as everyone else.

            Supernatural World War: kind of V5 status quo. Tone it down a lot, but still have it big enough for governments and other big players to notice something is amiss. It must be a far more grounded threat, though, and subtle enough to be hidden from the masses. The Ravnos aren't wiped out, but the Sabbat knows the time has come, everyone is preparing for the worse and the Second Inquisition does start indeed as the Masquerade is half broken at Intelligence levels.

            What it distinguishes from V5 for me is that this is still a Gehenna scenario. Things won't stay that "tame" forever as the conflicts between all the factions involved will evolve and escalate, and the other ancients will awaken, but by itself the Week of Nightmares' effects end here.

            No Gehenna: my take if the setting didn't go boom, and my headcanon overall about Gehenna. If an ante indeed awake, it wasn't really that big a deal. I mean, it's still a powerful vampire, but not so more powerful than a Methuselah already is, and "transcendence" is just achieving a neat level 10 Combo Discipline. That dude made a loot of trouble, but either eventually calmed down or was killed with a big effort, but a thousandth of the death toll or less. Neutron bombs are overkill and the solar attack wasn't strictly needed, although it may have helped. No world-around effects occurred except maybe for really sensitive ESPers picking something up.

            Ancients simply aren't the insurmountable threat described in legend, they're just really old. Their "transcendence", if it occurred, was spiritual/philosophical in nature, or even was the discovery of how to thin your own blood and memories like in Requiem's torpor to go back to feed on animals or mortals. Whatever the truth of it, if any, they may integrate in Kindred society without many vampires even noticing and the world goes on.


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            • I think you also miss monteparnas that the big issue is not necessarily (at least for tabletop gaming) that it was a death of millions but the fact that it was so overtly STUPID an event. The Ravnos Antediluvian woke up and started throwing around magic indiscriminately like Godzilla stomping Tokyo. It was mindless and according to Beckett's jyhad diary, a Wight possibly. If the Amtediluvians are real in your or my campaign, I assume they're going to be vast intelligences akin to Q and people who have been shaping the course of human destiny for the past 10,000 years like Menele and Helena x 10.

              Not acting like mindless Orks or soccer hooligans.

              So, it's really a question of what they hoped to accomplish by having an Antediluvian do this unless they wanted to suggest that they were going to stand still long enough to nuke.


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              • Good point.


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                • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  Good point.
                  Hell, it's not even a very big win for the Technocracy as they killed an Antediluvian with an Intelligence of 0.


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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I think you also miss monteparnas that the big issue is not necessarily (at least for tabletop gaming) that it was a death of millions but the fact that it was so overtly STUPID an event. The Ravnos Antediluvian woke up and started throwing around magic indiscriminately like Godzilla stomping Tokyo. It was mindless and according to Beckett's jyhad diary, a Wight possibly. If the Amtediluvians are real in your or my campaign, I assume they're going to be vast intelligences akin to Q and people who have been shaping the course of human destiny for the past 10,000 years like Menele and Helena x 10.

                    Not acting like mindless Orks or soccer hooligans.

                    So, it's really a question of what they hoped to accomplish by having an Antediluvian do this unless they wanted to suggest that they were going to stand still long enough to nuke.


                    I guess, they were trying to show multiple things: Antedeluvians are world ending threat, that can wassail, and that the Technocracy is terrifying...what they made was a mess, but I think that was the idea.

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                    • I really loved the idea of the cyclical Gehennas of BJD, especially about the rethickening of the blood by the awakening ancients and devouring back the blood of the generations. To me, the power of Antes is not Phenomenal Cosmic Powers capable of destroying continents, but the ability to command their children to do their bidding, as well as sometimes just breaking rules by dividing themselves as Cappadocius, Tzimisce, Lasombra and Malkavian did some way or another (Saulot too I guess).

                      And well, although it has no proof, and it isn't something I would define as fact, but I think my hypothesis that when a vampire just ups and dies, without having its blood drunk, their potency might just disperse into every vampire of their bloodline (like worldwide bluetooth blood potency dispersal), and in the case of thinbloods and caitiffs it is for every vampire on Earth. Of course this wouldn't make a difference, especially not mechanically, but it is what happens when a vampire isn't diablerised (where his/her power is taken all by one single vamp). This is some way also gives point to the whole killing of thinbloods rousing the Ancients, the more they kill each other, the more the Ancients get powerful without doing nothing. But just an idea lol

                      But I do like the idea that Ravanna is really dead. Even if like... as akin to Cappadocius, his physical form is destroyed, but maybe his psychic or "illusion" form (if there is such a thing) still exists, and it is much more tranquil. This is, if we (each Storyteller and Player) want Ravanna alive in our table, and if his significance is that much. Maybe he was just a Methuselah going nuts, if we diminished the scale of the Week of Nightmares, maybe even more than one Methuselah. Anyway, I guess this all is why V5 doesn't touch much on the facts of events, just the outcomes XD


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                      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                        I guess, they were trying to show multiple things: Antedeluvians are world ending threat, that can wassail, and that the Technocracy is terrifying...what they made was a mess, but I think that was the idea.
                        I must say that despite all the stupidity involved, as an action flick it was extremely entertaining and yes, that was the kind of thing we needed at the time if it is to push the start on Gehenna. As a concept it was the right idea, and the execution was outright good. It is something that needs tweaking, not complete removal and to be forgotten, as none of the stupid problems are inherent to its intention.


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                        • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          I must say that despite all the stupidity involved, as an action flick it was extremely entertaining and yes, that was the kind of thing we needed at the time if it is to push the start on Gehenna. As a concept it was the right idea, and the execution was outright good. It is something that needs tweaking, not complete removal and to be forgotten, as none of the stupid problems are inherent to its intention.

                          If they had done it, and had the Masquerade implode, the Ascension War go public etc, as the world has a demonstration of what lives among them, that would have been one thing, and probably the best way it could have been dealt with.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                            If they had done it, and had the Masquerade implode, the Ascension War go public etc, as the world has a demonstration of what lives among them, that would have been one thing, and probably the best way it could have been dealt with.
                            Not to say that I think a better conceived Week of Nightmares couldn't be more subtle without ceasing to be awesomely packed with action and special effects, but not only due to it I fully expected when V5 was announced a game set in a post-veil world where the Masquerade as a whole doesn't exists anymore (which doesn't mean that the Tradition couldn't exist as a protection for individuals and groups instead of the whole species. People knowing vampires exist don't mean knowing you're one of them).


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                            • I've always run it that there were such high levels of Chimerstry being thrown around in that event that nobody has any real clue what was going on.
                              A bunch of spirit nukes went off and all the world saw was a typhoon? Seems pretty plausible, especially given BJD has mystically appearing cities in it if I remember rightly.
                              I still lean into the story that an antideluvian awoke, devoured most of their bloodline (or got them to kill themselves) and then went back to sleep. Pretty much exactly how Gehenna is supposed to go.

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                              • Originally posted by Brickman View Post
                                I've always run it that there were such high levels of Chimerstry being thrown around in that event that nobody has any real clue what was going on.
                                A bunch of spirit nukes went off and all the world saw was a typhoon? Seems pretty plausible, especially given BJD has mystically appearing cities in it if I remember rightly.
                                I still lean into the story that an antideluvian awoke, devoured most of their bloodline (or got them to kill themselves) and then went back to sleep. Pretty much exactly how Gehenna is supposed to go.
                                Problem here is, again, that we have a detailed account of what happened. So no, the official account isn't plausible.

                                Chimerstry was used to create monsters, period. The typhoon was ridiculously big by itself. The nukes were clearly defined as neutron bombs, they had a spiritual effect, they weren't spiritual in the sense of existing in the Umbra, they were pretty much physical nukes. And 1.3 million people dying on a typhoon isn't something the entire world just brushes off, it may be something a typical US citizen brushes off (it was far from the US), but US opinion shouldn't be the only that counts for the Technocracy.


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