[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[CTPhipps]

Zzzzzzzzz

A bunch of vampires with 0 connection with the rest of the sect and dont have any relevance to the metaplot.

The metaplot of that book is the Rise of Mithras or his Fall. They could be Sabbat who end up taking down a 4th generation Ancient.

9 clows acting on their own is not sabbat

They are just goblins to the Pcs smash

The PCs can actually work with them to diablerize Mithras.

Right now for Sabbat:

* Monty Coven: Utterly consumed by Mithras now.

* The Harbingers of Skulls: Defected to the Hecata and have left the Sabbat.

* Carolina Vasquez - Killed by traitor Lasombra.

* Talley - Defected to Marcus Vitel and the Amis Noctis (for some value of defected), now a rogue.

* Marcus Vitel - Current Baron/Emperor of Washington D.C.

* Washington D.C. - Fallen to the Anarchs (for some value of the word)

* Montreal - Fallen to Camarilla, Sabbat still present in the city.

* Mexico City - Fallen to Camarilla.

* Seven Fires: The Midwestern Sabbat, functioning autonomously as it's own Gehenna Cult.

* The Amis Noctis: Defected to the Camarilla

* Lucita - Possibly killed by Talley.

* Polonia - Fighting the Gehenna War.

* Vykos - Last seen being freed from the control of the Dracon.

* Ecaterina the Wise: Defected to the Anarchs with Cristof.

* Vasantasena: Defected to the Anarchs.

* Doyle Fincher: Defected to the Church of Caine.

[Taggie]

Oddly, I think you could do all of that in the game better than before now. The players just have a lot more roleplaying freedom about what they think their Paths are about.

Unless you can have 10 convictions(with them falling away as you Path score falls), 0 touchstones, and 0 tenets...no no you can not do a better job, and we have a word for those who don't follow Paths rigidly, that word is Wight.

[CTPhipps]

Unless you can have 10 convictions(with them falling away as you Path score falls), 0 touchstones, and 0 tenets...no no you can not do a better job, and we have a word for those who don't follow Paths rigidly, that word is Wight.

Bluntly no, I don't think any of your descriptions make for a better Path player. The Path is about the PHILOSOPHY behind it. It's why I always preferred Roads. The Tenets and rules are less important than the mindset.

It's why I always preferred the Path of Caine and Path of Heaven.

Lore heavy and PHILOSOPHY heavy rather than tenants. It's about how you ROLEPLAY not what you roll.

[Taggie]

V5 is obviously a much darker (maybe mature maybe not) setting than previous editions. We both know this.

The Sabbat also haven't been nuked since they play a large role in the Lasombra defection and show up in THE CHICAGO FOLIOS.

Hell, while it's a minor role, they also play a role in THE FALL OF LONDON given Monty Coven's followers are all Sabbat.

It is not obviously a darker setting, in face I can't see how you reach the conclusion that it is.

Also, being mentioned to that parts of the sect can be torn away to be given to other sects is not really playing a large role. On Fall of London, haven't read it so can't properly comment.

[Taggie]

Bluntly no, I don't think any of your descriptions make for a better Path player. The Path is about the PHILOSOPHY behind it. It's why I always preferred Roads. The Tenents and rules are less important than the mindset.

It's why I always preferred the Path of Caine and Path of Heaven.

Lore heavy and PHILOSOPHY heavy rather than tenants. It's about how you ROLEPLAY not what you roll.

I see paths as mapping onto a religious doctrine, something like the Nicean Creed, the more Orthodox you are on the Path the less power the beast holds but the more rigid your thinking and bound your actions are but the tenets of the Path, the conflict is between how of each form of servitude you are willing to endure, someone with path 10 is (for want of a better term) ultra orthodox, rigid in thought and predictable (you can use your knowledge of their path as a guide to what and why they will do things) someone at path 0 is obviously a Wight and equally predictable, they are animalistic predators with no sentient thought left. How you balance those forces for a specific character is where things get interesting,

[CTPhipps]

It is not obviously a darker setting, in face I can't see how you reach the conclusion that it is.

The writing. It deals with mature issues and focuses on the conflict between Humanity and the Beast to a much greater degree than previous editions. The Second Inquisition is a constant threat that threatens vampires with issues of government surveillance as well as medical testing plus black site imprisonment. The Thin Bloods are also a much bigger role dealing with family, friends, persecution, and more.

Also, being mentioned to that parts of the sect can be torn away to be given to other sects is not really playing a large role. On Fall of London, haven't read it so can't properly comment.

I'm just saying the Sabbat doesn't seem to be gone. Its there or the Lasombra wouldn't have someone to defect from. They're not all in the Middle East.

[Taggie]

1)The writing. It deals with mature issues and focuses on the conflict between Humanity and the Beast to a much greater degree than previous editions. The Second Inquisition is a constant threat that threatens vampires with issues of government surveillance as well as medical testing plus black site imprisonment. The Thin Bloods are also a much bigger role dealing with family, friends, persecution, and more.



2)I'm just saying the Sabbat doesn't seem to be gone. Its there or the Lasombra wouldn't have someone to defect from. They're not all in the Middle East.

1)maybe, I don't see that as darker, than what we had before, different certainly, and hitting edgelording more publicly, (not going to say more often, because I don't think they really are, but they are doing so more openly) also I don't see how Hunger and Touchstones play up the beast more, but I despise both those rules so...

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

[CTPhipps]

1)maybe, I don't see that as darker, than what we had before, different certainly, and hitting edgelording more publicly, (not going to say more often, because I don't think they really are, but they are doing so more openly) also I don't see how Hunger and Touchstones play up the beast more, but I despise both those rules so...

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

My only real comment here is that I don't think anyone has left their Path in-universe. Vykos might have a Humanity score in V5 but she's still on the Path of Death and Soul. It's just measured differently.

It's not that they're getting rid of the Paths, it's just that they're now in-universe cults.

That's just my read at least.

[Lian]

2) a group calling it self the Sabbat has been mentioned, yes, but they seem to be mindless acceptable targets and cartoon villains that are having the more widely popular factions torn away (so you can now play Lasombra without being Anti, and without being Sabbat, More Anarch Tzim, huge injection of fighters to the Anarchs by former Loyalists who are now all apparently on humanity) a sect being torn down for spare parts before being left in a desert junkyard basically.

AH the No True Sabbat argument.

[Taggie]

My only real comment here is that I don't think anyone has left their Path in-universe. Vykos might have a Humanity score in V5 but she's still on the Path of Death and Soul. It's just measured differently.

It's not that they're getting rid of the Paths, it's just that they're now in-universe cults.

That's just my read at least.

My problem is that I cannot see the Tenets, Convictions and Touchstones systems actually supporting Paths. You get 3 convictions to encompass 10 sins plus the ethics of a path, it just doesn't map at all ( as stated it doesn't work for humanity either imo.)

[Taggie]

AH the No True Sabbat argument.

Explain please. We have a system that doesn't support them and lore that is salvaging them for parts while having the bits they don't want act like complete idiot's.

[Val_Nir]

This.

Sabbat became impossible so, their solution was put Sabbat on a bus and never have to worry with this game hole anymore.

If any Sabbat player is reading this: v5 developers don't want you playing v5.

Lmao. Thanks, but I'd rather wait for them to officially say it and wait for its introduction anyway. And yes, it's a positive thread, unless taking posts like yours into account.
I really don't understand that whining choir 'V5 is not VTM' enthusiasm.

[Val_Nir]

It is amusing that Sabbat fans wish the Sword of Caine, the Great army of Gehenna to sit out Gehenna. Really, they left a bunch of places. There are still Sabbat domains as of Blood gods. A bunch of cities got swapped around. That you probably didn't play in and didn't matter much. The Sabbat are the most complicated part of Vampire to get right. You need to have everything else standing so you can have Antitribu at the very least.

So the Sabbat will be back from Crusades, with lost knowledge that they totally didn't have before stolen from the ancients(much like the European IRL crusaders bringing back algebra) they as the last faction that comes into play before say something like the true hand will get a heaping dose of power creep and inevitably V5 early adopters will be screaming how broken the Sabbat is, with the justification being the battle hardened crusaders need to be this badass to survive.

10/10. Nicely put. Very, very close to my personal view on their introduction. not sure they'll make them THAT powerful, but we'll see. An obvious downside would be drastically reduced numbers and the need to go as covert as possible, the thing which old Sabbat was not particularly known for, and a change I would welcome, personally.

[Taggie]

It is amusing that Sabbat fans wish the Sword of Caine, the Great army of Gehenna to sit out Gehenna. Really, they left a bunch of places. There are still Sabbat domains as of Blood gods. A bunch of cities got swapped around. That you probably didn't play in and didn't matter much. The Sabbat are the most complicated part of Vampire to get right. You need to have everything else standing so you can have Antitribu at the very least.

So the Sabbat will be back from Crusades, with lost knowledge that they totally didn't have before stolen from the ancients(much like the European IRL crusaders bringing back algebra) they as the last faction that comes into play before say something like the true hand will get a heaping dose of power creep and inevitably V5 early adopters will be screaming how broken the Sabbat is, with the justification being the battle hardened crusaders need to be this badass to survive.

Gehenna was being fought, the destruction of the Camarilla and Anarchs was the necessary first step. until and unless that is achieved digging in the desert is pointless.

Also we aren't gettin gehenna, we are getting 'shuffle off everything inconvenient to the ME, make some ham fisted current affairs foreign policy analogies, and then let the super kewl anarchs fill the breach, and hoover up extra members and territories because they are the bestest.

[CTPhipps]

Gehenna was being fought, the destruction of the Camarilla and Anarchs was the necessary first step. until and unless that is achieved digging in the desert is pointless.

Also we aren't gettin gehenna, we are getting 'shuffle off everything inconvenient to the ME, make some ham fisted current affairs foreign policy analogies, and then let the super kewl anarchs fill the breach, and hoover up extra members and territories because they are the bestest.

I thought it was explicit that the Sabbat fighting the Camarilla and Anarchs was a distraction from their true mission. The Sabbat had gotten caught up in secretarian wars that were ultimately pointless.

Mind you, part of what I liked about the Sabbat was its hypocrisies to go alongside the fact it was right the Ancients were the real danger.