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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Like I said, the problem with cosmic horror in vampire is the fact that you're the monster, not the squishy human. I'm not saying it can't be done but I feel like one's wires are crossed if you try.

    I also think it's a little too, "These guys are WORSE!" that the Tzimisce and Lasombra have EVIL powers.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-23-2021, 04:32 PM.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Viscititude as a disease was, I think, an attempt to inject cosmic horror into the setting (along with Obtenebration, when the Abyss was a mystery, which it no longer is), but Dirty Secrets utterly wrecked that theme, it's far better when Vis acts like a disease in some ways, when Obten links to..well we don't know, and calls hungry...things sometimes, than oh it's basically The Thing and oh it's weird Necromancy.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    I take the middle path

    Humanity is there to encourage a happy place. On one hand it's there among other things to discourage you from slaughtering your way through your problems like a bunch of DnD terrorists. On the otherhand, you're basically never going to become a wight unless you try for it or the ST straddles you with addiction and derangements like meglomania (note, I'm not especially familiar with 1e, so perhaps humanity rules are more brutal there than the later games I'm thinking of) MRH in an interview linked recently stated he would give players humanity back but didn't want to add it in the rules because, y'know, players would cheese that, but I was kinda happy to hear that because that was something I was doing in my own games. Players having to act moral also adds to the whole idea of the Masquerade, since you know the players are the bloodthirstiest psychos you've ever had the mispleasure of sharing a room with and yet they have to pretend to be "normal". Plus, like, vampires are metaphores for elites, and though dairy farmers, landlords, accountants and publishers are all extremely evil, you don't see them rip human throats out (often).

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post

    How many times have we been through this? When the original concept of Vicissitude is a set of abilities that is more like a disease than a normal discipline, and "fleshcrafting" is just a side effect of the infestation, of course Vicissitude is going to be framed as a very bad thing. You might as well be asking: "Why does Cthulhu have to be inimical to all human life? Why can't Cthulhu be a good guy? You just want to make Cthulhu evil!"

    The Elder God Kthanid, created (ironically enough, considering the topic) by Brian Lumley, proves that obviously you can make a good guy Cthulhu. Just like you can easily turn Vicissitude into a generic "plastic surgery" power. However, at that point you've drifted so far from the original concept that I fail to see what the end result adds to the setting. Why does Vampire: The Masquerade need a generic plastic surgery power? Why is the existence of some form of Vicissitude in the setting taken for granted, and it's only the original implications that ought to be removed?

    Protean has you covered when it comes to traditional vampiric transformation powers. What's the point of a generic set of powers called "Vicissitude" that has been stripped of all the context that was the sole purpose why it was added to the game in the first place?
    1. Oddly enough, Brian Lumley and I both are published through Crossroad Press and he was a big influence on my Cthulhu Armageddon books. Gave me some solid advice.

    2. The thing is that making Vicissitude "evil" is damned silly when you're ALREADY a vampire and everything you use your powers is fueled by the blood of the innocent. It's like creating Double Dog Dare Damned vampires. Disciplines are already evil so why is this EXTRA-evil?

    3. The difference between duking it out with Space Fascists and Souleaters is the latter aren't nearly as cool or as fun. Black Hand's biggest to me was that it seemed to have "Vampires fighting Formor and other Wyrm critters" which is not vampire.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    " NO MORE, I AM SICK OF YOU AND THE POINTLESS ENDLESS EVIL BULLSHIT!"
    I totally dig this guy!

    Originally posted by Nyremne View Post
    To be fair, humanity was never, from a game design perspective, a core part of the game.
    A what?

    To begin with, this is preposterous. Humanity is the main theme of the game and, as a mechanic, one of the most important since the first book. So much so that the Paths exist, it doesn't means humanity isn't important, it means it's so important that Humanity as a trait must be transmuted into something else precisely because it can't be simply ignored. If it weren't a core part of the game the Guide to Sabbat would simply say "members of the Sabbat don't have a Humanity score".

    You mean instead that the Path of Humanity, specifically and to the exclusion of everything else, weren't ever meant to be the only option. And that is probably true, although I still contest it. They probably had and idea about the paths before publishing the first edition core, but since the very core book don't allow any way for you to change or ignore Humanity it is pretty much a core part of the game, the definition of such.

    Path of Humanity don't have to be a core part of the game anymore. That's a sensible affirmation, and true. Bullshitting about the one true way is always a dick move. Unfortunately one that White Wolf was guilty of for practically its entire history, but BS nonetheless. As Paths and Roads were developed the game grew and offered more options, and this is good. Giving versatility is always just plain good.

    But Ur-Than wasn't talking about it, either. They specifically said that they view the Paths as narrowing humanity instead of deviating from it, not that they should be seen as that. It was a statement of interpretation, not of the right way to play the game. And I totally agree, humanity, with "h", not "H", is the core theme of the game no matter how you look at it. The game is about human minds wrapping around the idea of being a vampire and fighting the Beast, and every Path is a way to achieve that, that pretty much human necessity.

    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    How many times have we been through this? When the original concept of Vicissitude is a set of abilities that is more like a disease than a normal discipline, and "fleshcrafting" is just a side effect of the infestation, of course Vicissitude is going to be framed as a very bad thing. You might as well be asking: "Why does Cthulhu have to be inimical to all human life? Why can't Cthulhu be a good guy? You just want to make Cthulhu evil!"
    Apples and oranges, and not totally true. First that it wasn't the first concept presented to players, the very first iteration of the Discipline have nothing to do with it being a disease. Second that Vicissitude being a "disease" that may affect the mind as described in Player's Guide to the Sabbat, as much as it probably was, in fact, in the original concept of the Discipline in the devs' heads, is a very different animal from Vicissitude as the Soul-Eating Body-Snatchers From Space presented in DSotBH.

    One is a viable power with drawbacks and interesting story options. The other is a single story to be told, and that have been already told and Sigourney Weaver won.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    I think you absolutely need the fear of Vicissitude so that you can avoid questions like "Surely some tzmisce should like the Camarilla" or "Why hasn't the Camarilla employed fleshcrafters to help with the masquerade". You can only really answer this with a fuckton of prejudice .

    So V5 making Vicissitude a mere Protean amalgam? Well that prejudice is very quickly countered as the unknown has become known.

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  • Elphilm
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I mean they really have stuck to that hard.

    "Vicissitude is soul eaers!"

    "That's dumb!"

    "Vicissitude is the ELDEST TRYING TO POSSESS YOU!"

    "Why do you just want it to be evil?"

    "FLESHCRAFTING IS EVIL!"
    How many times have we been through this? When the original concept of Vicissitude is a set of abilities that is more like a disease than a normal discipline, and "fleshcrafting" is just a side effect of the infestation, of course Vicissitude is going to be framed as a very bad thing. You might as well be asking: "Why does Cthulhu have to be inimical to all human life? Why can't Cthulhu be a good guy? You just want to make Cthulhu evil!"

    The Elder God Kthanid, created (ironically enough, considering the topic) by Brian Lumley, proves that obviously you can make a good guy Cthulhu. Just like you can easily turn Vicissitude into a generic "plastic surgery" power. However, at that point you've drifted so far from the original concept that I fail to see what the end result adds to the setting. Why does Vampire: The Masquerade need a generic plastic surgery power? Why is the existence of some form of Vicissitude in the setting taken for granted, and it's only the original implications that ought to be removed?

    Protean has you covered when it comes to traditional vampiric transformation powers. What's the point of a generic set of powers called "Vicissitude" that has been stripped of all the context that was the sole purpose why it was added to the game in the first place?

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris24601
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I mean they really have stuck to that hard.

    "Vicissitude is soul eaers!"

    "That's dumb!"

    "Vicissitude is the ELDEST TRYING TO POSSESS YOU!"

    "Why do you just want it to be evil?"

    "FLESHCRAFTING IS EVIL!"
    Personally, Vicissitude as soul eating entity/the Eldest prepping you for use as a meat puppet is fun for the same reason duking it out with the Space Fascists of Jupiter is fun and why some of the more interesting bits of the setting are where it brushes up against things that suggest a larger world (ex. the Tremere/Order or Hermes, Necromancy/Wraith, Baali/some variety of demon) without the need to make it a full crossover.

    Vicissitude as something truly alien adds a degree of cosmic horror that a Storyteller might want to play with. This doesn’t mean it has to be true in every campaign (in my current campaign it’s origin is just a particular path of Blood Sorcery and rituals), but dismissing it as universally stupid just strikes me as narrow-minded and closing off options just to close off options.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Asakku just strike me as a weird variety of vampire Formor. I really like the whole "vicissitude is evil" shtick as propaganda and paranoia but not in actuality.


    I like that they believe it and go all in, I don't like that they can break gen limits etc. If it stayed belief, an extreme version of Metamorphisis that would be great.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Asakku just strike me as a weird variety of vampire Formor. I really like the whole "vicissitude is evil" shtick as propaganda and paranoia but not in actuality.
    I mean they really have stuck to that hard.

    "Vicissitude is soul eaers!"

    "That's dumb!"

    "Vicissitude is the ELDEST TRYING TO POSSESS YOU!"

    "Why do you just want it to be evil?"

    "FLESHCRAFTING IS EVIL!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Random Goblin
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Exactly. It was just one aspect of a flexible game system that could tell a variety of stories in a variety of genres. Now it's suddenly the "the core", the one thing you just must have or you are having fun wrong. It's like a burger joint insisting you eat your burger with pickles or you are scum.
    I mean. Early Vampire the Masquerade was famous for telling you to do it one way or you're having fun wrong. At this point it's basically a punch line. Yes, V20 broke deliberately from that but... that took 20 years.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Exactly. It was just one aspect of a flexible game system that could tell a variety of stories in a variety of genres. Now it's suddenly the "the core", the one thing you just must have or you are having fun wrong. It's like a burger joint insisting you eat your burger with pickles or you are scum.
    If you mean Humanity (capitalized), it certainly was one of the central themes that divided the Sabbat and Camarilla as well as a major part of the rules system.

    I also find it MORE flexible than less.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Asakku just strike me as a weird variety of vampire Formor. I really like the whole "vicissitude is evil" shtick as propaganda and paranoia but not in actuality.

    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyremne View Post


    To be fair, humanity was never, from a game design perspective, a core part of the game.
    Exactly. It was just one aspect of a flexible game system that could tell a variety of stories in a variety of genres. Now it's suddenly the "the core", the one thing you just must have or you are having fun wrong. It's like a burger joint insisting you eat your burger with pickles or you are scum.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    The Pre-Orders for the Sabbat book will arrive this month according to outstar,

    Leave a comment:

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