[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[Taggie]

The Path of Metamorphosis leans hard on body horror and the Path of Asakku leans hard on body horror and arguably cosmic horror and insanity.

I like Asakku as a concept, but it is so, so abusable. But the it is Tal'mahe'rah so... yea.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The Path of Metamorphosis leans hard on body horror and the Path of Asakku leans hard on body horror and arguably cosmic horror and insanity.

[Taggie]

Then the Sabbat is indeed a problem for the core of the game of Vampire. What's the point of being an horror game if you can totally ignore the horror part ? It'd as if in Call of Cthulu you could just have some plyers ignoring the whole alient horror of it all. And as I said, the Paths never seemed inhumans to me. They are merely a narrowing of the definition of human. Yes, even the Path of Beasts, since each and everyone of them could be followed by a human in the end.

And I say that as someone who wants the Sabbat to be playable, but not at the cost of the whole theme of the game.

The Sabbat are a different kind of horror, but still horror, Call of Cthulhu can be Cosmic Horror color out of Space style sci fi, or it can be body horror with the horrific Innsmouth mutants, or it can be slow creeping insanity, or it can be a hopeless war against cultists and old ones (The Laundry Files, or Delta Green for instance) all of those are contained inside the Mythos. Similarly the Paths offered a different take on morality, on self control and the nature of evil that Humanity doesn't and can't, Infernalism offers yet another view, who is worse, the Templar totally devoted to Honorable Accord or the Evil Revelations Cultist? Or Baali on the Path of the Hive? Or the Lasombra Abyss Mystic? Can some of those be called evil, or are they beyond that? So inhuman that they are no more evil than a hungry lion?

[Taggie]

Well, the most logic options would be Red Talons abandoning the Nation in extremism and Stargazers or Children of Gaia searching for new alliances, I suppose.

hadn't the Stargazers already done that? Moving to the Beast Courts ?

[Nyremne]

Then the Sabbat is indeed a problem for the core of the game of Vampire. What's the point of being an horror game if you can totally ignore the horror part ? It'd as if in Call of Cthulu you could just have some plyers ignoring the whole alient horror of it all. And as I said, the Paths never seemed inhumans to me. They are merely a narrowing of the definition of human. Yes, even the Path of Beasts, since each and everyone of them could be followed by a human in the end.

And I say that as someone who wants the Sabbat to be playable, but not at the cost of the whole theme of the game.

To be fair, humanity was never, from a game design perspective, a core part of the game.

[Taggie]

Unless they win a monomancy or diablerize their way to power.

No one is waving a Soulscope over you.

They only know if you're not on a path when you become a Wight.

kind of true, depends on whether Paths still get Auras really, and even then those only kick in at a mid-high ratings.

[Ragged Robin]

I always liked a lot of sabbat being on humanity and just faking it until they make it. It provided a lot of interesting experiences and plot points , I recall a salubri anti everyone assumed was on honorable accord who snapped after it was made clear the kids were getting shovelheaded as well. The player delivered the line so well.

" NO MORE, I AM SICK OF YOU AND THE POINTLESS ENDLESS EVIL BULLSHIT!"
He rattled this speech out while he decapitated a dumbfounded tzimisce eldar.
He then went Blade/punisher/omar on the sects. Basically cost the siege.

Good times

[CTPhipps]

I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG

You act like that logic doesn't follow.

"We're doing our shit right. Why isn't everyone else?"

Ergo: "Fuck it, we'll go it alone."

[Manfr]

Well, the most logic options would be Red Talons abandoning the Nation in extremism and Stargazers or Children of Gaia searching for new alliances, I suppose.

[monteparnas]

I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG

But that's precisely it, at least for me. Which tribe have a particular view of their cause that can make them feel fed up with the rest of the Nation because they don't agree?

Actually a good chunk of them. The Get isn't one of my favorites despite vikings, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Yet, they're my bet.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Hey folks,

One of the tribes has abandoned the others entirely, so convinced are they of the truth of their cause and the inaction of the other werewolves. Another tribe has lost faith in the Garou and has withdrawn to seek other allies in the fight against Gaia's foes. Now, the only grasp a werewolf can trust is their own pack.

I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG

[Ur-Than]

That defeats the point of the Sabbat, and what makes them different from Anarchs and Cam they don't care about humanity, that's the attraction, they are using totally different ideologies to hold the beast back. Having to be on humanity was one of my biggest gripes with requiem, and why I never played more than a few games.

You cannot be on Humanity and be Real Sabbat, that's like being an alcoholic t-totaler. Or yet another mindless anarch piece of filth.l, or even worse, one of the civil rights heros turned into twisted caricatures and shat upon as Anarchs.

Then the Sabbat is indeed a problem for the core of the game of Vampire. What's the point of being an horror game if you can totally ignore the horror part ? It'd as if in Call of Cthulu you could just have some plyers ignoring the whole alient horror of it all. And as I said, the Paths never seemed inhumans to me. They are merely a narrowing of the definition of human. Yes, even the Path of Beasts, since each and everyone of them could be followed by a human in the end.

And I say that as someone who wants the Sabbat to be playable, but not at the cost of the whole theme of the game.

[monteparnas]

monteparnas Apocalypse it's over because figthing for nature it's dated, and figthing the Wyrm sucks? ... I have no words. And I really don't think it's my place to speak, I'm not exactly a Werewolf fan.

It isn't what I said, you're stretching quite a bit.

First of all, fighting for nature definitely isn't dated, quite the opposite. But the setting came from assumptions that are pretty much dated. Global warming is a fact, as is climate change, but Gaia pretty much won't die because of that. WE will. Radiation won't kill or mutate all life, it will kill or mutate US. Every species currently on the face of Earth is going to face Hell and it definitely is our fault, but a lot of those species will adapt with time. The average suffering will be less than what we're going to deal with, especially considering that our part in it will diminish considerably either by us learning the lesson or us dying. But those are not the assumptions of the game.

That's all. I don't think that fighting for nature is dated, I think that WtA's take on the fight for nature is dated.

And fighting the Wyrm all the frigging time and talk about that all the time sucks. A lot. Because if you don't play Werewolf you don't know how much the books and many players talk about the same theme all the time. A game need other things for the players to do and other stores for the ST to tell. And WtA does have them. But the fight against the Wyrm too frequently takes so much space and focus that doing anything else is hard, and the Garou society frequently seems to press on for you to put other stuff down and go fight. It isn't the Jyhad or the Ascension War. The Garou aren't a country at war. They're an army at war. It makes sense, but is very limited for story themes.

[Chris24601]

He was commenting on what revised did, the Avatar Storm cutting off the Umbra etc. They had already tried to trap Mage on Earth...

Yup. And it sucked and would suck just as much if someone completely undermined the core premises of any other property. Think Ben Reilly Spider-Man, think just about every movie universe reboot in the last decade compared to the originals.

To their credit, they also started to reverse course almost immediately and started introducing different methods around the Avatar Storm. M20 thankfully leaned much more into 2e as it’s basis with just enough detail on how to do magick in the style of Revised, but even its agnostic setting default seemed to based on the idea that the events of Revised had died down and everything returned to a more 2e setup.

But it still really needs to be taken as an object lesson of how not to do a reboot. For example, as much as I personally dislike V5’s direction and closing down of certain playstyles, I can still acknowledge that it’s personal horror focus is something V1 had as an initial premise and something the other editions tried in various ways to reframe. One can argue the execution, but at least the intent is there.

The bits about W5 though scream MageRev type changes of focus instead of an attempt to update the focus of the Wyrm’s banality onto more modern sensibilities (ex. GMO foods, the banality of suburban sprawl, bathing our environment in cellular/wifi, addiction to smart devices, increasing separation from the natural world) and how the banes and other other spirits have evolved… but are still things that transform into things a Garou in Crinos can fight.

[CTPhipps]

And the ones on humanity will remain shovel heads, until they walk a path they can't be True Sabbat

Unless they win a monomancy or diablerize their way to power.

No one is waving a Soulscope over you.

They only know if you're not on a path when you become a Wight.