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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • Manfr
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Wait, what? Are you saying there won't be a version of Feral Heart in this edition?

    I highly doubt "Forsaken" means "there will be no version": it means "renegade, traitorous, heretic". I'm fairly curious of seeing why such a thing happened.

    I really didn't have a clue about the Path of the Sun, I must say I'm a bit intrigued by the rational behind it, it completely subverts traditional Sabbat thinking while being clearly a logical derivation of their vampiric suprematist ideas.

    After all, why shouldn't Thin Blooded daywalkers with sorcerous powers and no Beast not think of themselves as superior to other Vampires? They may be physically stronger than them, but so were Mammuths or Neanderthals compared to Sapiens, and that didn't help.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Ur-Than View Post
    I think Humanity in V5 is different from both previous editions and Requiem, right ? Because I feel in Requiem it does work.
    Since 2nd edition it sure does. Not only because of the revisions in its tenets and overall meaning, but the rule to take up to three "sins" and inure yourself to them by taking on some strangeness goes a long way to heavily broaden your options of character concepts, including truly monstrous villains, without any need to ignore it as either rule or theme. If I had to point a direction for the Paths to go I'd say it is that rule.

    But the greater problem here are VtM's previous editions, since the V5 rules for Humanity are really good, too, way more versatile.

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  • Ur-Than
    replied
    I think Humanity in V5 is different from both previous editions and Requiem, right ? Because I feel in Requiem it does work. I can totally picture a Cruàc master (five dot, thus caped forever at Humanity 5 max) being at a 2/3 level and thus absolutely monstrous and cold to most, inflicting horrible pain rituals on the acolytes and their victims alike... but also having still that nugget of "good" in her, being able to just never hurt a child because "that'd be going too far, the Crone loves all her children" or something.

    Same for any of the other four Covenants and I think the Sabbat would work better if it was kind of the same. Yes your fanatical Sabbat warrior will stop at nothing to defeat the Antediluvians and he throws his Humanity to the Beast to betetr resist its lure... But there is still something inherently human in it, some moments, here and there where the monster is shed away, for a time. Those moments of peace where the Vampire ponders his choices, where they led him and where they'll lead him the next night. And then he reasses his principles. Not because he can ignore his Humanity but by embracing it : so what if he's a monster ? There is far worse out there and he fight it.

    I get that a lot of Sabbat players don't want to be burdened by Humanity and I get that WW believes that Paths allowed the Sabbat to essentially hack the game as they felt it ought to be played... but I think there is a middle road somewhere, where yes, Sabbat players have to deal with Humanity in some way and don't get to just ignore it and its loss but where they can still be real Sabbat.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    In a sense I think the problem is Humanity itself as developed by the game.

    A vampire that is utterly monstrous is a trope strong enough to be a given. Be it merely an antagonist or a playable character, it doesn't change that such villain would be an unavoidable option from the get go. It was maybe the only thing I remember striking me as bad from my first reading of the first edition. How do you do such a villain, now? Is that really it, any vampire that doesn't shy of being a monster becomes a mumbling baboon?

    Using Humanity by RAW without anything to compensate for it I pretty much doubt Kindred society would be really that bad for the simple reason that low Humanity is far more dangerous to Vampires than to mortals. I mean, really, would you kill people if you knew the tangible benefits of being a good person and degenerating could really cause you that level of mental damage? I don't doubt someone would be that dumb, but PCs aside, how many would?

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Roads were cooler.

    There's nothing inhuman about inhumanity. We're fragile things and we'll cling to crazy. There's no shortage of real life examples. People will kill in the name of pacifism. The Sabbat weren't really that far gone. It's what happens when the nutters have power that's interesting, taking the power away from the Sabbat consequently makes things less interesting.

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  • Ur-Than
    replied
    To return to the Sabbat proper, I think that the insistence that the Paths are divergent from Humanity as a whole have hurt their chance of being playable somewhat. It makes it easier to say that they are absolute monster, basically one step away from demon or wighs... but it's not really the case for me.

    When i read the Paths, all those years ago, they never stuck me as distinct from Humanity so much as a narrowing of it. To me it was always the idea that you sacrifice a lot of the Man to the Beast in one go, but what you keep, you strengthen and fortify.

    I mean..; Path of Honorable Accord ? Of the Beasts ? Even the Cathars (despite the terrible misnomer of that path compared to the Good Chirstian's real faith) ? They would fit perfectly well with some peoples. Very human peoples. Paths aren't so much a separation from Humanity than a partial abdication to not lose everything in that approach.

    Of course, it'd mean that Sabbat Vampires wouldn't be able to do whatever they want and totally ignore humanity; Paths shouldn't allow one to sidestep entirely the Man, even the Path of Beast. Forbidden a Pather from ever achieving Golconda or returning to Humanity would already be a huge price to pay, for instance.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    We'll see.

    I admit my skepticism is tremendous as I am *ALSO* a huge Star Trek fan and there is a very large contingent of people who have the belief that Nu Trek's releases aren't successes.

    I think V5 is here to stay for at least a full run and has expanded many markets.

    I am also not so deluded as to not know it has gone through multiple controversies.

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  • Chris24601
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I think unlike 4th Edition that V5 has produced some utterly amazing products in Chicago by Night and Cults of the Blood Gods, though.
    4E had some gems in it too. It’s DMGs were considered some of the best ever in terms of practical advice (so much so that much of it was lifted whole cloth into the 5e DMG), and 4E Dark Sun, Heroes of the Feywild and the Nentir Vale Monster Vault were considered amazing as well.

    But those amazing supplements don’t change the fact that 4E managed to alienate enough of D&D’s playerbase without bringing in enough new players that a retroclone of its previous edition managed to unseat D&D as the number one RPG in the industry.

    Take from that what you will, but I’ll observe that a still readily available and third-party supported (via the Storyteller’s Vault) V20 is basically the release valve for those unhappy with V5’s direction in the same way that Pathfinder was for 4E.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    I am however filled with absolute dread for the next editions of werewolf and mage.
    At this point I'm more curious than interested. Like, I'm really, really curious about what they'll do, yet I'm just sticking to X20 rules wise, with some CoD adaptations for rules.

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I think unlike 4th Edition that V5 has produced some utterly amazing products in Chicago by Night and Cults of the Blood Gods, though.
    But contrary to popular belief 4th Edition did had some good material. Especially the idea of making Save or Sucks into gradual processes with the first stage tacking hold without roll was something I liked a lot and adapted to my 3.5 games.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post

    I'm mostly sticking with v20/Revised rules while incorporated some of the better v5 mechanics. I've re written the fluff developments to make them more cohesive and internally consistent, for example I've downplayed lasombra defection and Hecata unity. Otherwise I'm chalking this down to another 4th ed d&d and waiting coarse corrections through feedback. Mostly I'm just waiting on offers and sales for book purchases after wasting £35 on anarchs, once bitten as they say....

    I am however filled with absolute dread for the next editions of werewolf and mage.
    I think unlike 4th Edition that V5 has produced some utterly amazing products in Chicago by Night and Cults of the Blood Gods, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    Okay, I am well and truly done with this edition. That killed the last little bit of enthusiasm I had for it. Just snuffed it right out like stepping on a cigarette.
    I'm mostly sticking with v20/Revised rules while incorporated some of the better v5 mechanics. I've re written the fluff developments to make them more cohesive and internally consistent, for example I've downplayed lasombra defection and Hecata unity. Otherwise I'm chalking this down to another 4th ed d&d and waiting coarse corrections through feedback. Mostly I'm just waiting on offers and sales for book purchases after wasting £35 on anarchs, once bitten as they say....


    I am however filled with absolute dread for the next editions of werewolf and mage.
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-22-2021, 05:36 AM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    If you don't enjoy it, then you shouldn't hurt yourself trying.

    However, I am going to wait and read the book first and see what it's like. Justin Achilli is one of my favorite V:TM writers.

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Okay, I am well and truly done with this edition. That killed the last little bit of enthusiasm I had for it. Just snuffed it right out like stepping on a cigarette.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Wait, what? Are you saying there won't be a version of Feral Heart in this edition?
    It was listed among the Forsaken Paths in the index that guy provided.

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...64#post1460264

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post



    I am more surprised the Path of the Beast is out than anything else as you'd think they'd be all down with the Near Dark Texas Chainsaw Massacre Sabbat.

    Wait, what? Are you saying there won't be a version of Feral Heart in this edition?

    Leave a comment:

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