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You're ready for the Embrace. But first! Plastic Surgery!

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  • You're ready for the Embrace. But first! Plastic Surgery!

    So... I may have watched 1 too many plastic surgery make over shows. Given how important looks are to people and the number of options people have now to make themselves look better*. That got me wondering...

    Since a vampire reverts to the look they have when they are embraced each night. In the modern nights, would a Sire get his/her potential childer some plastic surgery (if needed) before embracing?

    Same for getting training by a fitness instructor, dietitian, etc.

    Just so say childer would have the "look" they want for the rest of their unlife?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wingstorm View Post
    So... I may have watched 1 too many plastic surgery make over shows. Given how important looks are to people and the number of options people have now to make themselves look better*. That got me wondering...

    Since a vampire reverts to the look they have when they are embraced each night. In the modern nights, would a Sire get his/her potential childer some plastic surgery (if needed) before embracing?

    Same for getting training by a fitness instructor, dietitian, etc.

    Just so say childer would have the "look" they want for the rest of their unlife?
    In Revised, the fluff say that the embrance fix all imperfections and at the end of transformation the Child receive a predatory beauty, but don't give any specific rule for that. Except, maybe... when it give you for free the first dot in each stat beyond the 7/5/3?
    I thin your assuption may be correct, but it would be a huge let down to me the idea to make surgerys and firtness before be embranced. From the pure game perspective, it's is useless because all you are doing is just buying appearence with points of xp (its possible raise it even after embrance).

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    • #3
      Fake Tits and titanium hips; What an argument.

      If you get a tattoo, you'll always have that tattoo. It will regrow even if your flesh is shaved off. I think? Haven't remembered that in a while. But does that extend to large things like silicon/titanium? If your hip gets blown off; Do you 'regrow' the titanium or do you regrow a space for titanium to be reinserted? Do you need to reinsert that silicon glob should tits recieve injury?

      an important thing is that upon the embrace the beast canibalizes all your excess fat. vampires are lean (but not at the expense of sex appeal because the beast is... smart) and that takes a lot of necessary grooming out of the equation. I do wonder how stretch marks are dealt with. I do believe it's completely normal for vampires to groom their prospective child, but I imagine most sires are too old fashioned to consider plastic surgery.


      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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      • #4
        In the BLOODSUCKING FIENDS: A LOVE STORY book by Christopher Moore, silicon breasts get forcibly expelled by the Embrace alongside things like metal screws and other foreign objects.

        It is nasty to watch.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          I doubt many vampires would resort to plastic surgery,

          first, there's the risk that surgery will botch and end up with undesired results,
          second, let's not lie to ourselves, progress with plastic surgery is still at a primitive state,
          only time it would be worth the risk would be for some really bad features such as harelip

          if you're that concerned about your childe's looks, look for a Tremere/Tzimisce/sorcerer/mage with the proper flesh warping tech

          fitness training though is plausible, a lot of sires prepare their candidates for the embrace long before the embrace,
          lasombra, for example, groom (torture) their candidates for a long time until they're good enough for the embrace
          Last edited by Pleiades; 05-20-2020, 07:21 AM.


          -

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          • #6
            It can take months for plastic surgery to fully "settle in" before the initial healing, sometimes more than a year. Assuming it is an embrace planned months in advance, and the sire wanted a childe who filled a social role it might make sense to take every available advantage. That's a lot of assumptions, though. There are lots of non-surgical options to improve someone's looks.

            Some embraces are planned a year out, but not many. If you really want to embrace, and you have the prestation to pay for permission, do you want to risk losing that permission between deciding on a target and doing the deed? If the purpose for plastic surgery is to reduce the effects of aging, then waiting that extra year might make the whole thing a wash. This is without complications, which could be minor ("I decided I liked my old nose better... for eternity.") or major disfiguring injuries ("I enjoyed being able to close my eyes.").

            Most sires wouldn't really care about their childe's looks. If you need someone to understand new technology, keep an eye on a newly acquired domain, or fight the enemy, looks don't matter much. In fact, someone with very "normal" looks can go places and do things more memorable people might not get away with. A fashion model or body-builder in enemy territory will be noticed and remembered. A completely average person, not so much. (Plus, life is easier for an average looks person. Clothes, cars, and coffins are all made for their size.)

            Of course, you don't want someone so ugly it makes hunting and basic interactions difficult. That just means picking better. Successful, valuable people tend to also take good care of themselves and look moderately healthy, if not like a supermodel. For example, if you want a retired military officer with business experience, spend the extra months finding ten of them and embrace the prettiest.

            Some childer are embraced for a social role, true. Arm candy for Elysium, or feeding bait are common goals. Out of millions of humans in the city, though, couldn't the sire find one that's ready-made attractive? It's a great deal easier to find beauty than to make it. Given a year or so, the sire could take over a modeling agency or yearbook publisher and sift through headshots. Set a clerk at the dmv to spend the year jotting down the name and contact info of the prettiest person renewing their license each day. The sire follows up promising leads. This would get you the prettiest out of thousands of people.

            There are a few instances where cosmetic surgery might make sense if an irreplaceable target has a specific flaw which is easily fixed, which left unfixed could make unlife difficult. Removing an inconvenient tattoo, mole, or birthmark are the most common of these. Carefully targeted liposuction might be helpful to drag a target across the event horizon which separates vastly obese and over-weight. Non-cosmetic plastic surgery, which fixes functional issues makes sense, too. For example, if your target has unusually large breasts, which cause back pain and shoulder strain you might want a reduction before the embrace.

            Any surgery which relies on adding inorganic material, as noted by other posters, is probably too risky. This is an embrace, not a science experiment... unless it is a science experiment, of course. If you're doing that, though, avoid titanium hips. Start with subdermal implants made of gold and diamonds. Who knows, you might turn a profit on the project.

            There are some steps a sire can take with only a few weeks or months of prep to improve their childe's appearance.
            1. Select someone who is moderately attractive to begin with. No matter who you want to embrace, there is someone with a similar skillset who is a little prettier. (Ignore if embracing your One True Love, of course.)
            2. Avoid targets with trendy looks. By definition, these things will soon look ridiculous. Go for simple, classic good looks. Think healthy, rather than beautiful.
            3. Ghoul them ahead, with generous feedings. This allows them to heal minor wounds, so they won't spend eternity with a sprained ankle, ingrown beard hair, or sunburn.
            4. Make it clear to them what is going on, and what the goal is. Their new full-time job is winding down their mortal life and preparing for the embrace.
            5. If female, ask her about her menstrual cycle. Most women have no major symptoms, but some bloat, break out, or have swelling. If so, consult with her on exact timing.
            6. Not related to beauty, per se, but renew all licenses and identification at the start of the month. This will be much harder in a few years. Looking a little frumpy will help "age" their photos. This is also a good time to acquire several sets of fake papers.
            7. Schedule a full and complete medical and dental exam. You don't want some weird illness ruining your plans.
            8. Send them to the gym. No miracles expected, but everyone could afford to get a little more fit and tone.
            9. Good nutrition, but no crash diets. Healthy eating and hydration helps skin, eyes, hair, and nails look their best.
            10. Emphasize basic daily self-care. Skin hygiene, tooth whitening, and manicures. Moisturize regularly.
            11. Stop cutting all hair. The childe will look a little bushy each night, yes, but having longer head hair (and underarm and beard and chest, etc.) makes adopting current styles easier as these styles change. It's easier to remove hair each night than to add it. Give the stylists of the 23rd century something to work with. If the childe is male and can't grow a decent beard, let them shave. Stop a day or two before the embrace to ensure some stubble. Shaving each night on arising can help them feel more human.
            12. This deserves special mention. There will be an urge to have them keep your schedule. Don't! They need plenty of rest on a regular schedule. You don't want bags under the eyes, fatigue puffiness, or pallor from lack of sunlight.
            13. Remain slightly flexible with the schedule. Everyone has off-days. Waiting a few days will be worth it if they look their best.

            Bottom line: Embrace for the function you need, but avoid any major impediments to the childe performing that function.
            Last edited by Nosimplehiway; 05-20-2020, 09:25 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              an important thing is that upon the embrace the beast canibalizes all your excess fat. vampires are lean (but not at the expense of sex appeal because the beast is... smart) and that takes a lot of necessary grooming out of the equation. I do wonder how stretch marks are dealt with.
              I like this idea a lot, but It's contradicted by the existence of vampires like Horatio Ballard.

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              • #8
                The thing is NuclearSnake, more of what a vampire 'is' is contradictory then what isn't and I've ultimately come to the conclusion that (at least retroactively) that is intentional.

                What I mean to say is that there are so many ways to play with and use the basic concepts and concepts of vampires. Having the embrace transmute somewhat into an ethereal predator of the night like say 'The Vampire Chronicles' is obviously interesting. However so is having someone trapped within a perfect recreation of how they were for the rest of eternity in the style of 'True Blood' or 'What We Do In The Shadows' is also interesting.

                The former lends itself towards operatic and gothic narrative while the latter leans itself towards realism and visceral sensation rather well, alongside every other potential option, but ultimately one must treat the vampiric condition as flexible enough to allow for what one needs.

                If someone needs vampires to function in one hard certain way for their chronicle, they can do that by establishing 'The Rules' from the beginning. If someone wants to keep it mysterious and flexible they can show that through their storytelling as they please.

                It ultimately comes down to what it is that the Storyteller and Players want to achieve and that limiting oneself unnecessarily is not in anyone or the story's best interest.

                Use what you like, discard what you don't, and may The Golden Rule always be your champion.

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                • #9
                  I'm of the opinion that people don't really change much with the embrace. You might get a little bit thinner, but if you were fat before you'll be fat after. Your skin might get a little smoother, but if you had a bad complexion before then you keep it for eternity. Which is why ghouling someone before the embrace could be nice because then they could heal anything that can be healed. I wouldn't say that a ghoul could "heal" from being overweight, but they could heal acne scars.

                  It's my opinion that in most cases, an embrace should be the result of years of planning. Not just anybody is allowed to embrace - it requires permission from the prince and maybe favors as well as a minimum degree of political influence. It will seldom happen on a whim and may even be the result of decades of planning from a being which is centuries old. If I were a vampire, I would have a number of ghouls that I groom for the embrace and that have been ghouls under me for decades at least. After all that time if they have proven their competence then they might be worthy of the embrace. If I want them to have a certain style or get into better shape, that is the time to do it. It is wise to make sure everything is in proper order before the embrace - nails are properly clipped, hair style is right, etc.

                  I imagine that plastic surgery before the embrace is pretty rare. For one thing, plastic surgery is still pretty new. Most vampires that are old enough and influential enough to embrace are going to be skeptical of it. It might also be experimental, in that artificial parts introduced to the human might go away with the vampire. Maybe in Anarch territory that may be more of a thing, but I imagine that the Camarilla would mostly thing its weird. I imagine that it would happen from time to time though, maybe among young and particularly shallow Toreador who have found a good candidate for the embrace but who have just a few imperfections.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NuclearSnake View Post

                    I like this idea a lot, but It's contradicted by the existence of vampires like Horatio Ballard.
                    There's room for people who don't fit the mold. After all; Some vampires fear crosses, most don't, some vampires get stigmata, most don't. I feel making "Obesity" a Merit/Flaw might stir some anger, especially because I think the list of features is long. Maybe the beast left you fat because in your very soul you're a fat person or something...

                    On one hand it's a merit; Hunters don't expect fat vampires. All that extra tissue might help soak too. Oh, and putting your weight into things might help in combat. Being undead will mitigate a lot of the more serious problems with obesity. And if you're a Tzmisce you've got a lot to work with.
                    On the other hand; You stand out in a lot of countries. Towards most people you'll take an appearance hit, and even if you gain supernatural strength and agility your bulk will still negatively impact a lot of activities. You have difficulty finding body armour your size, if you're really big you might get in trouble with stealth or be a little easier to hit.

                    I feel there's a lot of ways to powergame it, and as somewhat of a fatty myself, I don't think obesity should be celebrated.


                    I feel, for the most part. Most sires do groom their embraces if they don't fit the mold. At the very least, they avoid embracing on a bad hairday. Few vampires will say "Oi, I'm gonna make you immortal and unchanging, let's prep"(doing so will mean locking the individual up in a room for the duration of the transformation if you don't want things to go wrong). Most likely, they'll get the childe to their liking before the embrace without the childe knowing they're going to be embraced; They'll innocuously be recommended exercise, get coupons/gift vouchers for cosmetic services or gyms. Maybe weird shit might happen; Eyebrows get plucked while the person sleeps, or someone finds a lot of offers for free trials on anal bleaching... or a bad tattoo is specifically ruined in an all too unlikely accident.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      There's room for people who don't fit the mold. After all; Some vampires fear crosses, most don't, some vampires get stigmata, most don't. I feel making "Obesity" a Merit/Flaw might stir some anger, especially because I think the list of features is long. Maybe the beast left you fat because in your very soul you're a fat person or something...

                      On one hand it's a merit; Hunters don't expect fat vampires. All that extra tissue might help soak too. Oh, and putting your weight into things might help in combat. Being undead will mitigate a lot of the more serious problems with obesity. And if you're a Tzmisce you've got a lot to work with.
                      On the other hand; You stand out in a lot of countries. Towards most people you'll take an appearance hit, and even if you gain supernatural strength and agility your bulk will still negatively impact a lot of activities. You have difficulty finding body armour your size, if you're really big you might get in trouble with stealth or be a little easier to hit.

                      I feel there's a lot of ways to powergame it, and as somewhat of a fatty myself, I don't think obesity should be celebrated.
                      I'm fat too and I think that obesity could definitely be a flaw. That isn't a value judgement, it's just inconvenient. Actually, there probably doesn't need to be a new flaw, you could use existing ones depending on how aft somebody is and how it affects them. For somebody just a little bit overweight, there probably doesn't need to be any specific rules for it. For a hugely obese person, I can think of a few Flaws: Lame, Deformity, or Disfigured. They could also have the Merit Huge Size. Being very fat might make hunters less likely to think you're a vampire but it might also make you more memorable as well.

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                      • #12
                        Seems like something an especially shitty Toreador sire might insist on. “Darling, I feel we’re soulmates, and you have exquisite taste, but if I have to look at you for years on end, you’re going to have to be easier to look at.”

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                        • #13
                          The lack of a stunning beauty and the absence or plastic surgery before her embrace was mentioned as a heavy burden in the background of Panhard in New York by Night. Now Prince Panhard in 5th edition, of course.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                            I'm fat too and I think that obesity could definitely be a flaw. That isn't a value judgement, it's just inconvenient. Actually, there probably doesn't need to be a new flaw, you could use existing ones depending on how aft somebody is and how it affects them. For somebody just a little bit overweight, there probably doesn't need to be any specific rules for it. For a hugely obese person, I can think of a few Flaws: Lame, Deformity, or Disfigured. They could also have the Merit Huge Size. Being very fat might make hunters less likely to think you're a vampire but it might also make you more memorable as well.
                            That is the characteristical trait of the Macellarius in Requiem, a Bloodline of fat and cannibalistic Ventrue. In fact, that is the meaning of the word ventrue: Fat. Long time ago, the bigger, the better. Being obese was a sign of status and fertility.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Justycar View Post

                              That is the characteristical trait of the Macellarius in Requiem, a Bloodline of fat and cannibalistic Ventrue. In fact, that is the meaning of the word ventrue: Fat. Long time ago, the bigger, the better. Being obese was a sign of status and fertility.

                              I have, in some occasions and stealthily, used the Macellarius in my Vampire: the Masquerade games, and the reactions of the players (and their characters) have always been priceless... I'm fat, and I love them to the bone (The Macellarius, I mean...)


                              "No, no, don't look any further, my profile is actually more handsome than me"

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