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V5 did the Lasombra right...and wrong

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  • Originally posted by CTPhipss
    What does it mean for roleplaying?
    What do you mean? Vicissitude pre-V5 when the older versions and V20 were in the helm was the one of the most FREEFORM and RP intensive disciplines in all of VTM in how much you could even do with it. What do you mean by that? This the reason WHY the Tzimisce are so damn popular- because of all the unique and crazy possibilities you could do with them. This is why taking out Vicissitude would be one of the greatest disasters to happen with V5 if that is carried out. Why take it out? For what reason?

    Originally posted by Necroticbinder
    Removing Viss for Protean isn't outrageous.
    Yes it IS. Vicissitude is its own entire thing, minute similarities that would justify clobbering out such a classic discipline such as Vicissitude does not make SENSE. Not only that its the SIGNATURE of the Tzimisce bare none. There have already been a HUGE amount of bads- such with the Lasombra losing Obtenebration for some tenuous necromacy mixed into this new "Oblivion" and vice versa for the various Necromancy bloodlines. It's already scary that the Setites had their signature discipline gone away to the wind. The only reason why no one fussed about it that much because the Setites aren't that popular, but its completely different for the Tzimisce. Protean for Vicissitude, for the Tzimisce? lolno.
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 06-04-2020, 05:35 AM. Reason: SENSE


    V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about

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    • Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
      I mean. The no true scotsman appeal REALLY doesn't work for opinions. Especially when talking to someone who is. Espousing the exact opinion you are saying doesn't exist. Then there's the appeal to popularity (Even though this forum is highly polarized and I'm fairly sure you could right "fuck V5" and get a bunch of likes from the haters that roam around it).

      But really. Removing Viss for Protean isn't outrageous. The flavor of the Viss: Molding and altering flesh of others. The Flavor of Protean: Altering the flesh of yourself. Level 2 of Protean: Gives you the ability to turn your fingers into weapons. Level 3 of Viss: Gives you the ability to turn bones into weapons. Level 4 Protean: A fight form turning into an animal. Level 4 Viss: Warform. If we go with D:AV20: Elder Protean lets you transform and take on the appearance of another. So on, and so forth. Most powers of both disciplines end up being about transmutation of the self or others.

      As for blood sorcery focused Tzimisce we have Kolduns, Vozhd, Revenants, their tweaking of the blood bond. I mean. Really there's a lot of lore precedent for that type of thing. They are twisted experimenters and nothing quite best represents the flexibility that they have obtained and different projects that they have pursued than the discipline that gives them access to all sorts of rituals of varying power and utility.
      Kolduns are supposed to be super rare weirdos with a form of sorcery no one else has. Blood sorcery achieves neither of those things.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

        I dislike the way amalgams are being handled, and the loss of identity and options that the removal of clan uniques is causing
        Yep and that's entirely valid as a matter of preference.

        Originally posted by Taggie View Post

        Kolduns are supposed to be super rare weirdos with a form of sorcery no one else has. Blood sorcery achieves neither of those things.
        Blood Cults establishes that every individual cult has completely unique and unknown rituals.

        The Church of Cain have fire magic the Sabbat stole but no one else has (Lure of Flames but even better)

        The Setites have the Rituals related to the former Path of Corruption.

        The Path of Mithras have rituals related to Sunlight and War.

        So presumably the Kolduns have rituals no one else does.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 06-04-2020, 01:48 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
          What do you mean? Vicissitude pre-V5 when the older versions and V20 were in the helm was the one of the most FREEFORM and RP intensive disciplines in all of VTM in how much you could even do with it. What do you mean by that? This the reason WHY the Tzimisce are so damn popular- because of all the unique and crazy possibilities you could do with them. This is why taking out Vicissitude would be one of the greatest disasters to happen with V5 if that is carried out. Why take it out? For what reason?
          Like I said, I like the Tzimisce for reasons other than their Discipline. But sure, I guess I can see people liking it.

          Tzimisce = Inhuman Modern Day Noble.

          But different strokes for different folks.

          Yes it IS. Vicissitude is its own entire thing, minute similarities would justify clobbering out such a classic discipline such as Vicissitude. Not only that its the SIGNATURE of the Tzimisce bare none. There have already been a HUGE amount of bad such with the Lasombra losing Obtenebration for some tenuous necromacy mixed into this new "Oblivion" and vice versa for the various Necromancy bloodlines. It's already scary that the Setites had their signature discipline going away to the wind. The only reason why no one fussed about it that much because the Setites aren't that popular, but its completely different for the Tzimisce. Protean for Vicissitude, for the Tzimisce? lolno.
          You realize that it would still be in the game, right?

          In V5, it wouldn't be, "Tzimisce now become bats and wolves." Or at least not completely.

          It would be, "Protean users can now flesh-sculpt their bodies and enter Zulo form."

          So I'm confused why you keep acting like the power would disagree versus just becoming more available.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Yep and that's entirely valid as a matter of preference.



            Blood Cults establishes that every individual cult has completely unique and unknown rituals.

            The Church of Cain have fire magic the Sabbat stole but no one else has (Lure of Flames but even better)

            The Setites have the Rituals related to the former Path of Corruption.

            The Path of Mithras have rituals related to Sunlight and War.

            So presumably the Kolduns have rituals no one else does.
            But if it is a clan discipline, then they aren't super rare, and if it's Blood Sorcery, it isn't something no one else has, it's something to be stolen soonest.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

              Yes it IS. Vicissitude is its own entire thing, minute similarities would justify clobbering out such a classic discipline such as Vicissitude. Not only that its the SIGNATURE of the Tzimisce bare none. There have already been a HUGE amount of bad such with the Lasombra losing Obtenebration for some tenuous necromacy mixed into this new "Oblivion" and vice versa for the various Necromancy bloodlines. It's already scary that the Setites had their signature discipline going away to the wind. The only reason why no one fussed about it that much because the Setites aren't that popular, but its completely different for the Tzimisce. Protean for Vicissitude, for the Tzimisce? lolno.
              Except. As established in my post. It wasn't it's own thing. Just as Serpentis wasn't it's own thing. They were literally NPC powers that got changed into player powers while not actually fixing anything. Protean and Viss are both themed around shape shifting and evolution. Serpentis was protean and presence powers. Dementation was it's own thing and was the Malk's "SIGNATURE" power and yet somehow, most of the important stuff was converted in each case.

              The important part of Visscitude that people like: Flesh crafting. Dots 1-3 of the discipline. Could easily be made an amalgam of blood sorcery, Auspex, Dominate, or some other discipline that isn't Animalism, Fortitude, Presence, or Obfuscate. This means that Tzimisce still have their signature power because they will have the easiest time accessing it, other clans need to dip out of clan to get it which will always be easiest if you drink and learn from a Tzimisce. Even better as IF it's blood sorcery, that means that it REQUIRES that you have a teacher who knows it, so usually a Tzimisce to learn it.

              The issue with signature disciplines is that it works if and only if the game is designed around each clan having them, like Requiem did. VTM wasn't and so a lot of the "Signature" powers ended up having overlap with others. Somehow, mysteriously, the clans managed to keep most of their uniqueness without needing a separate discipline that was another discipline but better. The Ministry still has eyes of the serpent, and in most cases, they'll be the only ones with it. Malks still have dementation. Lasombra still have Arms of the Ahriman.

              Yes, there's been complaints about Oblivion and it's changes but. There's also been a lot of appreciation for those changes as well. At this point, people will complain about whatever changes are made but we can say for certain Viss has 0 chance of being it's own discipline. It breaks the design philosophy of the game for one, it could barely support the five power options in previous editions (See: It spread one power out across three), it also already fits into a discipline which matches it's primary theme. We also know that Tzimisce have protean from Chicago by night.

              Edit:
              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

              I dislike the way amalgams are being handled, and the loss of identity and options that the removal of clan uniques is causing
              This is well. Definitely a valid opinion I suppose but it's not really causing a loss of options by any definition of the word. Loss of identity is also arguable. Let's take the easiest to get amalgam: Eyes of the Serpent. It requires Presence 1 and Protean 1. The only people who can get easy access to that are the Ministry. Anyone else has to have one of the two components in clan and then has to get the other through a predator type OR they have to... learn it from someone with the relevant power. Given it's a presence power, most people that are going to learn it have to build their character around it by either: A) Taking it at character creation via the previously mentioned method which is restrictive or B) Give up a higher level power for a level 1 power.

              If anything, amalgams have increased clan identity because now Brujah can get spark of rage, Nosferatu can get unliving hive, Tremere get Possession, Toreador get Unerring Aim, Malks get Dementation and Conceal, Ventrue can get Irresistible Voice, Gangrel get Enduring beasts. Each clan now has an amalgam that they can get easily because they have it in clan. Can other people learn these powers? Yes. Could you learn protean, dementation, obteneration, etc in older editions? Yes. It's just that now it's remotely possible to learn it without the help of another person with the investment of a very rare resource, otherwise you still have to drink the blood of another vampire to get it. Usually the one who's clan has it primarily for the easiest way.
              Last edited by Necroticbinder; 06-04-2020, 02:15 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                But if it is a clan discipline, then they aren't super rare, and if it's Blood Sorcery, it isn't something no one else has, it's something to be stolen soonest.
                Like I said, I think making it more widely available would be good because if the Assamites have it, then the Tzimisce should.

                I feel like the Tzimisce should be one of the big Blood Mages in the setting.

                But I understand if you disagree. Its a matter of preference.

                I also point out it might NOT be one of their Clan Disciplines. Modiphius might give them any combination of Disciplines. It could be Auspex, Vicissitude, and Animalism. Or it could be Blood Sorcery, Protean, and Auspex.

                Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean is just my preference. Clearly not yours.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 06-04-2020, 02:09 AM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by Necroticbinder
                  The issue with signature disciplines is that it works if and only if the game is designed around each clan having them, like Requiem did.
                  How do signature disciplines don't work just because a few Clans don't have some? What does that mean? They worked perfectly before.

                  Originally posted by Necroticbinder
                  Protean and Viss are both themed around shape shifting and evolution.
                  Again, tenuous similarities don't mean they are the same at all. Vicissitude is more about biologicalism, while Protean is basically all about animals. The ONLY similarity is that they both extensively utilize supernatural change to physical forms. Beside that they have ZERO connections with eachother.

                  Originally posted by Necroticbinder
                  Could easily be made an amalgam of blood sorcery, Auspex, Dominate, or some other discipline that isn't Animalism, Fortitude, Presence, or Obfuscate.
                  No, just no. The amalgamation garbage has to stop.

                  Originally posted by Necroticbinder
                  It breaks the design philosophy of the game for one
                  What is the exact "design philosophy" are you referring to? If you mean the nerfs that were done in V5 as a whole- yeah I'd agree. That's what happens when you deliberately severe 6+ disciplines for people who played or wanted to play as Elders. Now that I think of it Vicissitude is DEFINITELY getting the boot for some ghetto Protean because of how they changed how disciplines worked.

                  Originally posted by Necroticbinder
                  The Ministry
                  Ministry? Never heard of it. I only recognize Setite.
                  Last edited by Shakanaka; 06-04-2020, 05:42 AM.


                  V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post



                    1)Somehow, mysteriously, the clans managed to keep most of their uniqueness without needing a separate discipline that was another discipline but better.

                    2)Yes, there's been complaints about Oblivion and it's changes but. There's also been a lot of appreciation for those changes as well. At this point, people will complain about whatever changes are made but we can say for certain Viss has 0 chance of being it's own discipline. It breaks the design philosophy of the game for one, it could barely support the five power options in previous editions (See: It spread one power out across three), it also already fits into a discipline which matches it's primary theme. We also know that Tzimisce have protean from Chicago by night.

                    Edit:
                    3)This is well. Definitely a valid opinion I suppose but it's not really causing a loss of options by any definition of the word. Loss of identity is also arguable. Let's take the easiest to get amalgam: Eyes of the Serpent. It requires Presence 1 and Protean 1. The only people who can get easy access to that are the Ministry. Anyone else has to have one of the two components in clan and then has to get the other through a predator type OR they have to... learn it from someone with the relevant power. Given it's a presence power, most people that are going to learn it have to build their character around it by either: A) Taking it at character creation via the previously mentioned method which is restrictive or B) Give up a higher level power for a level 1 power.

                    4)If anything, amalgams have increased clan identity because now Brujah can get spark of rage, Nosferatu can get unliving hive, Tremere get Possession, Toreador get Unerring Aim, Malks get Dementation and Conceal, Ventrue can get Irresistible Voice, Gangrel get Enduring beasts. Each clan now has an amalgam that they can get easily because they have it in clan. Can other people learn these powers? Yes. Could you learn protean, dementation, obteneration, etc in older editions? Yes. It's just that now it's remotely possible to learn it without the help of another person with the investment of a very rare resource, otherwise you still have to drink the blood of another vampire to get it. Usually the one who's clan has it primarily for the easiest way.

                    1) Erm.. going to have to say, some of the clans do blur together, telling the difference between a Presence using ventrue and a presence using toreador is a crap shoot for instance. The aesthetics and disciplines of both clans over lap a lot. (for instance), now Lasombra are going to overlap with Hecata as well, in another mush.

                    2) Then it's lost what made it interesting, sadly.

                    3) and due to the idiotic 'amalgams count against you 5 power limit' characters utterly know that Followers of Set are just weird gangrel.

                    4)hard and complete diasgree. Especially again with the no more than 5 powers from any discipline, including amalgams (Does this mean amalgams take a slot in 2 disciplines btw?)
                    Last edited by Taggie; 06-04-2020, 02:50 AM.

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                    • No, just no. The amalgamation garbage has to stop.
                      I think we're past that point.

                      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                      Ministry? Never heard of it. I only recognize Setite.
                      A weird name for a clan that has numerous branches that don't worship Set as of Revised.

                      Actually before since we have the Serpents of Light.



                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


                        1)Tzimisce = Inhuman Modern Day Noble.

                        But different strokes for different folks.



                        2)You realize that it would still be in the game, right?

                        In V5, it wouldn't be, "Tzimisce now become bats and wolves." Or at least not completely.

                        It would be, "Protean users can now flesh-sculpt their bodies and enter Zulo form."

                        So I'm confused why you keep acting like the power would disagree versus just becoming more available.
                        1) Tzimisce = Inhuman modern day Cenobite, Pinhead with fangs. Inhuman Modern Day noble is a ventrue...or a lasombra..or a giovanni,..or a toreador...

                        2) But it would be this blurred mess that locked you out of ever, if you wanted to do so later, coming back to learn the other proteans. Without that only 5 powers including amalgams hard limit, it would be slightly less of an issue, I would still not like it, it would still make them feel like a gangrel bloodline, but it makes a little more sense than merging 'summoning the darkness from outside reality, the elder dark from between the stars' with 'summoning the dead'. Tzimisce having Blood sorcery as a clan discipline however is a hard nope.

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                        • I think its very lazy put Serpentis, Vis and Protean in the same box lol. Using the same logic they could combine Dominate, Presence and Obfuscate, too. Its all about mind control, just separate it in alternate levels/amalg. Of course, if you wanted to make a vampire who control feelings AND control actions you would be tons out of luck because you can only have 5 powers per discipline, but who cares? So think very well if you will buy this very especific almalgam, dear player! Feelings are part of the brain; troughs too; perceptions too, so its the right thing merge the 3. Ladys and gentleman, Dominacensecate!!! with the alternative levels to you decide your expert area, baby!
                          Last edited by blailton; 06-04-2020, 03:20 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                            That actually MAKES the argument. God those are a terrible abomination, right up their with True Brujah and Blood Brothers on the 'oh no WW, why?!?!' list
                            How dare you.
                            The blood brothers are an underrated gem.

                            Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
                            I'm fairly sure you could right "fuck V5" and get a bunch of likes from the haters that roam around it).
                            From my experience, no, you can't. I've written a lot of poor anti-v5 posts and got nothing for it. Interestingly, a very constructive 'good idea for V5' post in the a V5 camarilla thread, and presumably got more reports than likes, because despite the content of the post I'd angered the tribe...

                            But really. Removing Viss for Protean isn't outrageous.


                            Protean is about using the beast to manifest temporary physical changes. Serpentis does the same but through a lense of faith.
                            Vicissitude is a discipline of sculpturing surgery with permanent results.
                            If you're going to join them together, you might as well pair presence with dominate and obfuscate, potence with fortitude, Obtenebration and.... Nevermind.





                            Old clan Tzmisce were the creations of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Change my mind.
                            Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 06-04-2020, 04:38 AM.


                            For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                            • That gif was the exact same reaction I had when I first read that. lol


                              V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post


                                Protean is about using the beast to manifest temporary physical changes. Serpentis does the same but through a lense of faith.
                                Vicissitude is a discipline of sculpturing surgery with permanent results.
                                If you're going to join them together, you might as well pair presence with dominate and obfuscate, potence with fortitude, Obtenebration and.... Nevermind.





                                .
                                That's actually a fair comparison, merging Presence and Dominate does make way more sense than Vis and Protean and Serpentis turning into this messy..thing that locks you out of the others.

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