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V5 did the Lasombra right...and wrong

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  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    That's actually a fair comparison, merging Presence and Dominate does make way more sense than Vis and Protean and Serpentis turning into this messy..thing that locks you out of the others.
    protean and serpentis merging does work,
    it was already the case in previous editions

    those two powers, as well as Daimonion were about manifesting powers and changing shapes framed by some theme or myth,
    daimonion and serpentis frame their powers/shapes around demonic/egyptian myths
    Protean has a "nature" theme going on

    one setite bloodline had protean as a discipline, but had different shapes (jaguar instead of wolves iirc), because they followed some Aztec myth, instead of egyptian myth

    Vicissitude is different however,
    their re-shaping aren't framed (locked) by some myth,
    you just mutate your body in whatever shape you want, each level pushes the limits a bit further, and breaking the limits imposed by vampiric stasis

    at Vici 1-3, you can roughly increase your physical aptitudes, but at the expense of another (you can increase strength but have to sacrifice health or dexterity etc)
    at Vici 4 (zulo shape), you can min-max your attributes without sacrificing health (+3 to str/dex/sta)
    zulo shapes may sound similar to protean war form, but the zulo shape isn't locked and can be further modified
    at Vici 5+, you've pretty much broken most limits to mutation
    Last edited by Pleiades; 06-04-2020, 09:01 AM.


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    • late to the conversation but i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway.

      they probably gonna replace vis with protean and make fleshcrafting an amalgam.
      i don't think the removal of unique disciplines is the problem but rather the systems that they've replaced them with (both amalgams and loresheets) are just woefully inadequate.

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      • For those who dislike V5's chthonic themed Obtenebration, what do you think its source should be or was?

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        • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
          For those who dislike V5's chthonic themed Obtenebration, what do you think its source should be or was?


          actually Chthonic, meaning from the far horizon, tapping into the power of the nephandic creatures beyond the umbra, who are older than creation and care not for humanity, the closest thing WoD has to the Mythos Gods. Not 'old and hungry ghosts'

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          • I think the Chthonic thing is fine, the Abyss is close enough.

            Making it the same as the shadowlands is bloody daft though.

            Like all the merging stuff, presence and dominate both control people, why weren't they merged?

            It seems like just trying to remove fun at every opportunity...


            Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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            • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
              who are older than creation and care not for humanity,
              While I don't recall any mention of discrete, indigenous creatures in V5's Abyss, that does sound like Shalim.

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              • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                While I don't recall any mention of discrete, indigenous creatures in V5's Abyss, that does sound like Shalim.


                unless they have totally changed the Abyss, it is the prison of The Fallen (except Lucifer), at the heart of the Shadowlands, which takes away all the Cosmic Horror you could play with.

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                • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                  I think the Chthonic thing is fine, the Abyss is close enough.

                  Making it the same as the shadowlands is bloody daft though.

                  Like all the merging stuff, presence and dominate both control people, why weren't they merged?

                  It seems like just trying to remove fun at every opportunity...
                  Because one is emotional control and because the other is direct control. Dominate has always been the hammer to Presences scalpel. And more importantly, each contributes to the themes of multiple clans. Unique disciplines work as an all or nothing affair. The arguments about why they "define the clan" for the ones got merged demonstrate exactly that.

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                  • Originally posted by archderd View Post
                    late to the conversation but i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway.

                    they probably gonna replace vis with protean and make fleshcrafting an amalgam.
                    i don't think the removal of unique disciplines is the problem but rather the systems that they've replaced them with (both amalgams and loresheets) are just woefully inadequate.

                    Serpentis, Thanatosis and Visceraticka can all comfortably be put under a label of weird protean.
                    Vicissitude isn't.
                    I mean, I think they'll do it, because they're absolute madmen/women, but It's think it's an atrocious idea.

                    Oblivion is a dumb MakesNoSense merger. Necromancy was basically Death-themed Thaumaturgy, the only mechanical difference was the lack of willpower rolls; It had paths under the main discipline, it had plentiful rituals, you couldn't use it in frenzy and you couldn't use it if you had some kind of no-magic flaw. Obtenebreation was a discipline. Sure it had a mystical side to it, but it didn't have paths, it was just one discipline, and although it did have rituals they were few (and there's a few disciplines I think that could use rituals: Chimestry, Vicissitude, Spiritus... There are a few discipline powers that are basically rituals, though honestly that's too my chargrin and a discussion on their own). You could use Obtenebration in Frenzy, which is a no-no for Thaumaturges, Necromancers and Kolduns.

                    Diamonion draws power from demons, but it isn't Dark Thaumaturgy. Just because something has a similar source doesn't mean they should come together as disciplines. Thanatosis isn't necromancy. Quietus may involve turning your blood into different kinds of poisons but it isn't about burning blood to channel your will into the creation of miracles...

                    It's... V5's discipline amalgamations are well and truly the offspring of the Dunning Krueger effect: When someone knows a little bit about something, they'll be far more willing to share their knowledge and views to impress than someone who knows a good deal about something. Oblivion is the result of someone reading hints that the Abyss might be something to do with the oblivion of the underworld, and they've gone all-in on that idea without knowing much else about either Necromancy or Obtenebration. The thing with Occult knowledge is that you're supposed to emphasize how little we truly know, not take the first theory we read as fact.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                      unless they have totally changed the Abyss, it is the prison of The Fallen (except Lucifer), at the heart of the Shadowlands, which takes away all the Cosmic Horror you could play with.
                      Who's to say that other worlds don't exist across the Abyss? It's allegedly infinite. Although it would be implied that those worlds are subject the same process of decay as "ours" and I suppose that could be seen as form of kinship, which may be at odds with the principles of Qlippoth.
                      Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 06-04-2020, 11:47 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                        Who's to say that other worlds don't exist across the Abyss? It's allegedly infinite. Although it would be implied that those worlds are subject the same process of decay as "ours".

                        we are obviously thinking about different abyss..because I am thinking about the one in the Shadowlands, created by god (and hence not Chthonic) as a prison for the fallen, the one tied to necromancy which one are you thinking about?
                        Last edited by Taggie; 06-04-2020, 11:48 AM.

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                        • Hey folks,

                          This is on me and I would give myself a warning if I could. We're falling into old habits, though. A reminder that everyone here is allowed to love different parts of vampire and there are some people who are just going to prefer different rules interpretations. That means some people prefer Blood Brothers, some people prefer Old Clan Tzimisce, and some people prefer Modern ones. Same for people who like combining disciplines vs. keeping them separate. Neither is "right" because it's all a matter of preference and taste.

                          Please keep this in mind when addressing issues that there's no "right" way to enjoy vampire.

                          My bad.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


                            we are obviously thinking about different abyss..because I am thinking about the one in the Shadowlands, created by god (and hence not Chthonic) as a prison for the fallen, the one tied to necromancy which one are you thinking about?
                            I'm talking about the one in Cults of the Blood Gods. A Samedi recounts a sort of guided tour he was given by a loa. He went through the part of the Shadowlands where old buildings exist, then "a place of perpetual storm", then a "maze", then he was shown "the infinite abyss that yawns before Oblivion". He compared Oblivion itself to "a black hole with a will". He said that standing before the Abyss felt like being touched by Lasombra powers, although he heard "whispers" and "one unending scream".

                            I just reread about the "Pit of Contemplation" ritual, which opens a door to Oblivion. It consistently refers that place as "Oblivion" and unlike the border between the Abyss and the Labyrinth, it's silent.

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                            • We weren't saying OCTzmisce were terrible horrible worst things ever and that you're bad for playing them. I know people that love OCT and would never dream of denying them from my games. I like Tzmisce with Auspex, Animalism and Dominate; That's a really fun spread that really fits a 'lord of the land' character.

                              However, I think a lot of issues with Tzmisce are due to that Dracula guy. People love Dracula, yet Dracula is Tzmisce and that's totally different from the Dracula they were thinking off... And therein some cognitive disonance occurs.

                              Weren't OCT, like True Brujah, Meant to be pretentious pretenders that just rejected some main-clan stuff and then made up a history of them being superior to back them up anyways?

                              Ironically, I think giving Tzmisce Protean instead of Vicissitude will be enforcing that 'Right' way to play Tzmisce on others. It's like saying "no, you can't have your weird fleshy discipline to get obsessed with and for us to be afraid of, you need to be a normal vampire."

                              The oblivion thing's much the same. Don't dedicate yourself to exploring the once unknowable Abyss, it's just a weird cousin of necromancy. Don't go all in on your clan specific we're all supposed to be conventional vampires who are normal....


                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                              • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                                I'm talking about the one in Cults of the Blood Gods. A Samedi recounts a sort of guided tour he was given by a loa. He went through the part of the Shadowlands where old buildings exist, then "a place of perpetual storm", then a "maze", then he was shown "the infinite abyss that yawns before Oblivion". He compared Oblivion itself to "a black hole with a will". He said that standing before the Abyss felt like being touched by Lasombra powers, although he heard "whispers" and "one unending scream".

                                I just reread about the "Pit of Contemplation" ritual, which opens a door to Oblivion. It consistently refers that place as "Oblivion" and unlike the border between the Abyss and the Labyrinth, it's silent.

                                Yup,. the totally not Chthonic one then

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