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Does Kartarirya's stuff contradict KotE?

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  • Does Kartarirya's stuff contradict KotE?

    Kartarirya is one of the most powerful 4th gens Tzimisces and has a very strong residence in Sri Lanka, he beat a powerful Nosferatu Methselah there and claimed the domain

    This stuff can date back to the 1st edtion Tzimisce clanbook, but is retained in Revised edition, which is a very strange thing because it contradicts the whole KotE: Sri Lanka is also the region of Flame of the Rising Phoenix Dharma. If such powerful being did exist there, had an epic war with another monster and claimed the whole area, then it should have much material even in Wan Gui perspective (Or such being just COULDN'T survive there)

    But the fact is, no, I looked through the section of Heresies of the Way and it said nothing about Kartarirya, or terribly powerful many-armed Kin-Jin or whatever. On the contrast it says Kindreds are always few there:
    Page 12
    With the Europeans came the first Kin-jin to the Middle Kingdom. The Kin-jin were always few in Sri Lanka's nights
    Does authorities simply ignore this? Or Kartarirya is just a disguise of Phoenix founder Katagarama?
    Last edited by Rock113; 06-12-2020, 09:06 AM.

  • #2
    I think its a retcon after KotE came out.

    In my fanon there's no retcon of course and while the Antediluvians usually ended up towards western Euroasia and that Saulot is most known for his travells east don't mean that no Antediluvian except Saulot ever took a walk east.

    In fact I'd go so far as to entertain the possibility of a Tzimsce stronghold on Sri Lanka. These Tzimisce play things differently from Eastern Europe but the Tzimisce are supposed to be malleable in shape and mind, so unless its total propaganda BS then I can totally a brood of Tzimisce make it on the island. Especially if they have a 4th generation to put some fear into both Cainites and Kuei-Jin as to avoid oversteping set lines or rules of conduct.

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    • #3
      pre-revised,
      there was a methuselah residing in California and united the anarchs to defend the free states against the sabbat and the "asian" vampires (those that peceded kote),
      there was two methuselah fighting over Mexico and one ruling over Brazil that were pretty much the fuel for the Sabbat-Cam wars in those areas,
      there were a methuslah in spain that isolated itself due to sabbat activity,
      one other had an abyssal god protecting madrid,
      etc etc

      they all got shafted in Revised

      I'm not sure why, but revised had a different policy concerning methuselah (and demons),
      they either retconned, killed or just downright ignored some of them (well, most of them I should say),
      maybe they wanted them to be more mysterious or something

      so don't expect consistency,
      pre-revised was a thing, revised was another thing
      Last edited by Pleiades; 06-12-2020, 09:19 AM.


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      • #4
        Revised Tz clanbook also mentioned him and it was even much more detailed, but nothing concerned Wan Gui, very very strange, they should face very intense opposition just like Ravnos...

        Or authorities of the clanbook simply forgot the KotE

        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
        pre-revised,
        there was a methuselah residing in California and united the anarchs to defend the free states against the sabbat and the "asian" vampires (those that peceded kote),
        there was two methuselah fighting over Mexico and one ruling over Brazil that were pretty much the fuel for the Sabbat-Cam wars in those areas,
        there were a methuslah in spain that isolated itself due to sabbat activity,
        one other had an abyssal god protecting madrid,
        etc etc

        they all got shafted in Revised

        I'm not sure why, but revised had a different policy concerning methuselah (and demons),
        they either retconned, killed or just downright ignored some of them (well, most of them I should say),
        maybe they wanted them to be more mysterious or something

        so don't expect consistency,
        pre-revised was a thing, revised was another thing
        Some methselahs in Revised period are... beyond the touch

        Lady of Plague, a "mere" 5th gens Setites appearing in Cairo by Night, also had a very much stuff in heavily related book Rage Across Egypt, which described her as a pure phenomenon. I think maybe that's the way the authorities wanted to express them
        Last edited by Rock113; 06-12-2020, 09:31 AM.

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        • #5
          I did a keyword quicksearch,
          the revised clanbook mentions he's in torpor (so yeah, he got "revised"),
          I can't find any mention of sri lanka though, only india

          either the quicksearch function is bugged or they retconned the whole sri lanka thing, do you have a quote?
          Last edited by Pleiades; 06-12-2020, 09:56 AM.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
            I did a keyword quicksearch,
            the revised clanbook mentions he's in torpor (so yeah, he got "revised"),
            I can't find any mention of sri lanka tho,

            either the quicksearch function is bugged or they retconned the whole sri lanka thing, do you have a quote?
            Kartarirya
            Kartarirya's existence extends the length of the Indian subcontinent's history, making it among the eldest and most powerful of our clan. It spent its earliest centuries with the Harappa culture and later with the Vedics who
            brought Sanskrit into the region. It did not coexist with them peacefully, however, for the bloodthirsty Kartarirya drew the hostilities of the growing Rroma people and a Nosferatu Methuselah who'd settled into the region.

            Despite some conjecture, the region's Tzimisce never inspired or emulated the multi-limbed avatars of the Hindu gods, though not for a lack of trying. Kartarirya tried impersonating Karttikeya, the god of war, only to discover the Brahmans wielded their faith as weapons and saw through such artifice. Surprisingly, in its search to find worshipers among the growing Vedic pantheon, Kartarirya came to understand and appreciate their religion. The multi-limbed divinities represented multiple states of beings, interpretations and personalities. While the divinities were certainly terrifying to behold, the Indians accepted the complex and often conflicting gods and precepts as natural. Everything and everyone had their place and moment in time. Enamored with the concept of multifaceted existence and perception, Kartarirya geared its transcendence toward that effort. Instead of seeking worship, Kartarirya sought to remold itself into a creature that could exist in multiple states of awareness simultaneously.

            Kartarirya fashioned the yakshi, demons by kine perception but horribly altered szlachta in reality. In the millennia following its arrival into the Indus Valley, Kartariry a's childer and yakshi schemed and fought against the growing Cainite presence. The Brujah, already familiar to the region through their influence in Mesopotamia, first arrived en masse when Alexander the Great's armies swept through Hindu Kush and the Afghan Plateau. When Alexander died on his return journey, the Greek garrisons found themselves cut off from their homes and remained behind. A few Brujah stayed as well, eventually Embracing from the indigenous people. The Gangrel who rode with the Mongol hordes proved troublesome with their continued raids against the regional villages and towns, but eventually, the Indian culture absorbed them as well. The Toreador came with the French colonization of India in the 17th century, though later, a French-Indian Tzimisce by the name Grandmere Kale ousted the Toreador from the island of Reunnoinnais and came to live deep in the heart of its dormant volcano. Her domain became tsy laosana, a Madagascar phrase for "a place from which you never return.".

            The Ventrue came well after the East Indian Company had established her monopoly over the region, but they proved of little concern to the local Fiends until the British suddenly went from a trading company to the ruling oppressors. The one place that remained beyond all outside influence, however, was opulent Hyderabad, a city blessed with Indo-Muslim heritage. From the 19th into the early 20th century, Hyderabad played the exotic port of call for the world's richest mortals and Cainites. Toreador aristocracy who'd seen their world shattered by the French Revolution flocked to the City of Palaces and its unique architecture that drew Muslim and Indian influences together effortlessly. High society, both sophisticated and exotic, intrigued vampires of all persuasions. Even the Ventrue couldn't resist attending her courts and processions. Some even suspect the Khazars finally settled in what became Hyderabad, lending an air of timelessness to its mystery.

            Of course, such beauty never lasts. Hyderabad's patron was Omasam, a Rroma of Paigah nobility and among the richest of the maharajahs. Omasam fought against Tzimisce inclusion in the local courts at every turn and even employed local murshad magicians to cast spells on families with Tzimisce affiliations. This forced the Tzimisce's hand in the region, relegating them to Embracing low-caste members after Omasamhad their aristocratic ghouls murdered in their beds. Nobody realized the full repercussions of his actions until well after India's independence, when the caste system itself degraded.
            They didn't mention Sri Lanka, but it still contradicted KotE a bit

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            • #7
              Tokyo is now run by the Camarilla.

              I think we can officially state the Kuei-Jin have not kept Cainites out of the East.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #8
                In both clanbooks Kartarirya was never given gender, not that that matters to Tzimisce of its age. I usually pictured it as the inspiration for Kali, therefore when I used her in the modern nights I chose that appearance for her. I established that Kartarirya's haven is in the oldest inhabited part of the island, Hambatota, during the later mesolithic era, while kueijin activity came from the iron age, therefore, their territory is Anuradhapura. I wrote a Tzimisce prince for Colombo, a childe of Ratti Ben.

                - Saga

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                • #9
                  I don’t see a contradiction. A. Kartarirya is in Torpor. B. The Wan Gui of Sri Lanka probably don’t hate Kartarirya with the same passion they feel toward more recent, more Westernized Cainites who haven’t assimilated (or at least tried to assimilate) into Sri Lanka’s indigenous culture the way Kartarirya has. There’s no reason the two couldn’t coexist.

                  How’d I do?


                  The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    Tokyo is now run by the Camarilla.

                    I think we can officially state the Kuei-Jin have not kept Cainites out of the East.

                    Tokyo a "Camarilla" territory.. since when? lol


                    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                      Tokyo a "Camarilla" territory.. since when? lol
                      THE CAMARILLA

                      Furthermore, it's very clearly ALWAYS been Camarilla territory by the description. Also, the Prince is an Old Clan Tzimisce,
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 06-12-2020, 11:27 PM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        Ah of course, it's a V5 thing. Also no- It's really debatable that Tokyo is "Camarilla" controlled since the Ketsuki/Gaki (what the Japanese Kuei-Jin call themselves) have had domain there since the Fourth Age. I wouldn't say the Camarilla has complete control of Tokyo, that'd just be stupid.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                          Ah of course, it's a V5 thing. Also no- It's really debatable that Tokyo is "Camarilla" controlled since the Ketsuki/Gaki (what the Japanese Kuei-Jin call themselves) have had domain there since the Fourth Age. I wouldn't say the Camarilla has complete control of Tokyo, that'd just be stupid.
                          Unless the Gaki are what Old Clan Tzimisce are called in the region.

                          Mind you, I refuse to accept the retcon that the Gaki are Kuei Jin. They were there first and best.

                          The final line intrigues me. Is it possible the Kuei-Jin are spirits riding Cainites?


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            I think we can officially state the Kuei-Jin have not kept Cainites out of the East.
                            To be honest I have a very, very bad thought,

                            Maybe the Middle Kingdom has been permeated and corrupted a lot by Cainites in V5 era, and Wan Gui has to go underground

                            Just like Garou has been weakened by Wyrm a lot

                            Wan Gui, in some ways, are still the guardians of Middle Kingdom just like ancestor Wan Xian and Garou, they battle the truly evil beings like Yama Kings and Cainites. Cainites invaded Middle Kingdom and Wan Gui fought back, in Revised the domination of Wan Gui had been loosened a bit, and the spread of Cainites in Middle Kingdom may be much stronger now...

                            The wickedness of the world is growing, the expansion of Cainites is a representation and is treated as a sign of the Sixth Age's coming...

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                            • #15
                              There has always been a strong Kindred presence in Tokyo, as well as a strong Hungry Ghost presence.

                              Does nobody read any material other than V5 here?

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