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[V5] So what do we think is going on in Tokyo?

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  • First I just wanna throw it out there that Tremere Thaumaturgy encapsulates the mostly european occult philosophy/faith of Hermeticism. Of which european and middle eastern alchemy stems, which in turn evolved into modern science. Your archtypical DnD wizard draws inspiration from Hermeticism/Odin (the latter inspiring gandalf) but the DnD wizard does not really explicitly attach itself to this and is rather muddled/philosophically agnostic, whilst the Tremere explicitly do attach themselves, just as the settites are explicitly attached to Gnosticism. In WoD, the beliefs of the mage are more prominent than the results. If the Tremere could not use magic, their philosophy would still shape them.

    Vicissitude 1-5 is fine. Balance wise you should reaĺly hold off on making a mod permanent unless you can spend several turns shaping (a quick grab and yank shouldnt be permanent on a vampire)

    Vicissitude 4 and 5 would make a lot more sense if you could take the concepts and apply it to others. Say Zulo is an art of canibalizing viscera and turning it into an explosive muscular/bone growth. While the human body needs organs to live and can't really pull this off to the degree of vampires (+3/3/3 would certainly kill them) The Tzmisce can provide minor boosts (+1/1/1) to ghouls without serious health risks (appearance probably goes to 1, your organs are at a far greater risks of failure if you dont have blood) or boost a ghoul/vampire with .+2/2/2 for a short time (The vampire loses the boost on rising the next night, the ghoul dies after an uncertain time unless treated)

    bloodform, meanwhile... That's when you go beyond the need to shape with your hands. Thats some peak body knowledge right there. lots of ideas, but a big one would be to set your zulo ghouls up to disolve to blood when they die for the sake of keeping secrets.

    Vis 1-5 are like the limits of what you can do. I'd say you learn specific procedures like rituals and... ever notice this happens when the tzmisce come up? we all get carried away.

    Vicissitude becoming protean would be really silly.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

      Vicissitude becoming protean would be really silly.
      You'll have to explain how because literally it would be, "Alternate Powers under an Umbrella Discipline." It would be called Protean because Protean means shape-changing.

      You could just as easily put Protean under Vicissitude.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • If you just go by the names it makes a bit of sense to merge them (they do connotate different things, but they are similar enough) But y'know, North Korea isn't a republic.

        Should we merge Dominate with Presence? Does sailing make for good plane piloting? Is makeup the same thing as cosmetic surgery?

        also the 5 power limit makes it really, really unwise to merge disciplines.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          If you just go by the names it makes a bit of sense to merge them (they do connotate different things, but they are similar enough) But y'know, North Korea isn't a republic.

          Should we merge Dominate with Presence? Does sailing make for good plane piloting? Is makeup the same thing as cosmetic surgery?

          also the 5 power limit makes it really, really unwise to merge disciplines.
          If there was the option of having multiple powers of the same Discipline, I'd absolutely say merge Dominate and Presence and rename it "Majesty."

          Sadly, you can't so it's the odd Discipline out.

          I also think they should remove the barrier and allow people to have as many alternate powers of a Discipline as they want.

          Personally, I approve of Tzimisce having access to Protean and Gangrel having access to Vicissitude. Gangrel are supposed to be master-shapeshifters, why shouldn't they be able to look like other people as well as animals? Also, what loser among the Tzimisce can't become a wolf or mist?

          But we won't know until the Players Guide.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 06-18-2020, 06:22 PM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Vampires aren't meant to make shit up as they go along. They're not mages. They're not supposed to be picking and choosing how they 'level up' every time as if they had skyrim's perk tree out in front of them.

            The old system of going 1,2,3,4,5 was elegant, and you could do whatever you wanted at 6+ because of six and above were for old characters that knew exactly what they were doing (Lore wise we could say ratings of 1-5 are normal and level 6 + Transcendant wonder powers where your soul excedes the normal confines of reality and the imposed 1-5 discipline plan; Getting a six in anything is essentially 'breaking free' and was reason enough to kill for)

            Fluff wise, it's bad, mechanically, it's bad. It just leads to choice paralysis (and leaves no incentive to diablerise) Not to mention many multi-feature powers in VTM have been split up so you can "have fun choosing" between something that used to be a complete plackage (you'd spend three levels in auspex just getting what used to be auspex 1) or in the case of new ones you must choose between hyper specific alternatives (Celerity 3: Do I learn to move really really fast specifically towards a person or do I learn to move that fast in any direction but not attack? Because clearly we're roleplaying in a videogame)

            Loosely speaking It's better to have 30 linear disciplines (with seven in regular use and I'd say another 2 aren't rare) that have five powers each that you don't cherrypick*, than it is to have 10 disciplines (9 in regular use with 1 not rare) with a pick and mix of 15 powers each (150 total)

            *Ironically Sorcery is simplified in V5 when it's the one thing that by it's nature should be complicated.

            It seems researchers would agree with me; Choice like this is bad.

            Having protean and having players struggling to pick between protean powers and viccissitude powers and serpentis powers and Visceraticka powers and Thanatosis powers (if that still exists) and having them plan out an order for them to get the powers they want is a far bigger pain than just choosing between Protean, Vicissitude, Serpentis, Visceraticka and thanatosis (A choice made when you choose your clan)


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • Honestly, the idea of vampires being "typical" and having a 1-2-3-4-5 system that's universal is ridiculous. They're supernatural entities gaining power FROM THE BLOOD. It should be customized and personalized.

              Having protean and having players struggling to pick between protean powers and viccissitude powers and serpentis powers and Visceraticka powers and Thanatosis powers (if that still exists) and having them plan out an order for them to get the powers they want is a far bigger pain than just choosing between Protean, Vicissitude, Serpentis, Visceraticka and thanatosis (A choice made when you choose your clan)
              I think it's far more fun as you can customize your vampire much easier.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • It isn't.
                The physical disciplines have a clear progression of 1,2,3,4,5
                Auspex, Dominate, obfuscate, chimestry, Vicissitude have perfectly logical progressions from 1-5
                Presence is a bit of an outlier in having a loose logic to the order. Obtenebration is about the same. These are rare weaknesses.
                Thaumaturgy and necromancy work by their own rules, and they make perfect sense (except the primary/secondary path system)
                Protean... Well, you can admire that it's consistent with it's relatives (Serpentis, Visceraticka, Thanatosis) in that the first power is sensory, the second power is a weapon/tool, the third power is a survival skill, the fourth is a useful transformation and the 5th is a big travel-centric transformation (Thanatosis might be a bit of an outlier in some cases). Protean is literally about being able to change fast and frequently so it isn't that big of a deal that it doesn't have a perfect progressive linup.

                I've not gone through every disciplines but more of them are in the second category than the third and very few powers are in a protean-like very-loose setup.

                How does getting power from the blood justify a choice of super jump or nasty punch? That's way sillier. V5 powers are so absurdly specific that I can't really see this argument going your way. .

                Edit:
                And again, you might personally like choice, but most people, especially new people, will suffer from overchoice. A lot of people avoid casters in DnD because they don't want to build spell lists, they don't gain joy from building a spell plan after hours of reading through disconnected powers.
                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 06-19-2020, 03:26 AM.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  It isn't.
                  The physical disciplines have a clear progression of 1,2,3,4,5
                  No, they don't. They have an utterly arbitrary progression most of them. Like what does Mist have to do with Bats, Sleeping in the Earth, and Claws vs. Red Eyes.

                  This is a matter of opinion but Zulo Form and Giant Man Bat are not really related to Skin Changing either.

                  Hence why its good to have options.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • The skill tree disciplines is a horrible design
                    • It doesnt allow you to pick more than 5 powers per discipline so it´s a limitating factor
                    • It is clear wich powers are superior becuase a lot of powers are just fillers leading to dominant strategies
                    • Everything is nerfed and high cost to use due rouse checks being fucking random.
                    • Few bucks allows you to buy a raufoss that deals agg+5 and allows you to attack at distance wich is way more than what any discipline can do

                    Defined 1-5 levels for simplicity shake with is the great advantaje of masquerade over other gamelines + combo disciplines for those who want customization should have been the way to go
                    Last edited by Leandro16; 06-19-2020, 05:04 AM.


                    https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      No, they don't. They have an utterly arbitrary progression most of them. Like what does Mist have to do with Bats, Sleeping in the Earth, and Claws vs. Red Eyes.

                      This is a matter of opinion but Zulo Form and Giant Man Bat are not really related to Skin Changing either.

                      Hence why its good to have options.
                      Again, you're picking on the outliers, not the norm.

                      Common
                      Uncommon
                      Clan Specific

                      Perfect progression:
                      Celerity, Fortitude, Potence. (Some thaumaturgy paths)
                      Super logical progression that're arguably or near-perfect
                      Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate, Chimestry, Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, Vicissitude
                      Seemingly Flawed partial progression:
                      Animalism, Dementation, Quietus
                      (version depending)
                      Mostly arbitrary (But still abiding by certain princibles, like the first power being broadly applicable and the latter powers being highly specialised, impressive and very powerful).
                      Presence, Protean and Serpentis, Obtenebration.

                      Out of the common Eight disciplines, three are perfect, three are really good (if not perfect), and two need work. To my knowledge there is a grand total of one canonical bloodline that doesn't have at least two common disciplines in-clan (Kiasyd, I won't count Maegar) and, honestly, clan specifics are weird things that can do with more leeway.

                      What's better; To have choose your own unique set of powers, or to use the same powers everyone else has in a way suited uniquely to you?
                      Consider the impact this would have on clan culture.


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        Honestly, the idea of vampires being "typical" and having a 1-2-3-4-5 system that's universal is ridiculous. They're supernatural entities gaining power FROM THE BLOOD. It should be customized and personalized.



                        I think it's far more fun as you can customize your vampire much easier.
                        Mage is going to disagree with you. They say Vampires and their special powers are so free to use because it is a fix standard what you can use when at which disciple and only the mightiest and the thin bloods can go to change something.


                        As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                        First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                        Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                        • In one view, we could say that vampires aren't developing powers, they're unlocking potential.



                          Havent mentioned it, but I feel kinda resentful that one can describe the price as 'of the old clan' and expect someone in the camarilla know what that means. They're supposed to be a rare fringe bloodline.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Havent mentioned it, but I feel kinda resentful that one can describe the price as 'of the old clan' and expect someone in the camarilla know what that means. They're supposed to be a rare fringe bloodline.
                            This is why I suspect that the term may refer to the clan as whole or that it means Tzimisce Antitribu. Assuming they even are Tzimisce, although the alternatives are dubious.
                            Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 06-19-2020, 09:44 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Havent mentioned it, but I feel kinda resentful that one can describe the price as 'of the old clan' and expect someone in the camarilla know what that means. They're supposed to be a rare fringe bloodline.
                              Like Spencer said, I doubt most Camarilla know the difference between "Old Clan Tzimisce" and "Normal Tzimisce", or have any idea what a "Koldun" is.

                              My guess is that "the Old Clan" is just a euphemism for the clan as a whole, like how Lasombra are "Magisters" or Torries are "the Clan of Roses". Even non-Tzimisce refer to the Tzimisce Antediluvian as "the Eldest", after all.

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                              • It isn't a euphemism as far as I know; those are listed, and Camarilla being non-religious (as a whole) aren't telling their neonates about Antideluvians. So it's just an assertion that old clan Tzmisce are super well known and popular...

                                they could've easily rolled with with "...of the Old Clan, A bloodline of the Tzmisce that have eschewed the fleshshaping discipline of Vicissitude" and it would've worked fine.


                                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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