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[V5] So what do we think is going on in Tokyo?

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  • Now, in V20, "Old clan" are listed as a Tzmisce bloodline without vicissitude. It's a bloodline, not a cultural classification.

    Also I've always thought they'd look at allegiance like this:

    Autark: You mean he has his own place? Admirable.
    Anarch: If they can get wild dogs to respect their territory, I can respect them
    Camarilla: NO, NO, NO!
    Sabbat: A messy lot. Some refinement, more vulgarity.
    Inconnu: Like a normal Tzmisce but more mysterious
    TBH: Like a normal Tzmisce but with a cool clubhouse.
    Laibon: An exotic guest! We can trade notes.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Now, in V20, "Old clan" are listed as a Tzmisce bloodline without vicissitude. It's a bloodline, not a cultural classification.
      Yes, superior beings as they may be, they don't hate their poorer less refined brethren.

      *sips tea while wearing monocle*

      Merely believe they need culling.

      JK.

      I think that the in-story justification is the Old Clan Tzimisce were original "normal" Tzimisce with Vicissitude but used Blood Sorcery to remove it due to realizing it was being used by the Eldest to control them. This is conjecture from a bunch of clues, though.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        Merely believe they need culling.
        .
        I think a lot of vampires from nearly all clans have the idea that a lot of their members should be culled. Protect the brand, reduce competition. I think the only exception is the Nosferatu, who want as many bloodbags between themselves and the niktuku as possible.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          My opinion on the various subjects?

          1. I don't think that the Tremere can be done without Thaumaturgy because the Clan is based around an Archetype and if you remove that then they are losing something central. I think some Discipline are more important than others to a Clan. The Gangrel need Protean, the Nosferatu need Obfuscate, and the Toreador need Presence. I don't think Malkavians need Dominate or Ventrue need Potence but it adds to their character.

          2. No one actually wants to get rid of Vicissitude. This is a lie being deliberately spread and I wonder who is responsible. However, every person who claims it is someone who is engaged in deliberate misinformation and it's not cool. Some people don't think the Tzimisce NEED Vicissitude and prefer the Old Clan version without it but that's different from wanting to get rid of it. All indications are the publishers may be combining the Discipline with another but it's not going away and anyone who says that is lying.

          3. I don't think that the Tremere are in any way D&D wizards because "functional" magic goes far beyond Dungeons and Dragons. I know this as a fantasy author. Ritualism and Paths are fundamentally different mechanically as well.

          4. One of the major arguments here is what exactly is the importants of fluff vs. crunch. The Tremere, IN ADDITION To having Thaumaturgy, are also possessed of an extremely fascinating Clan Culture. Indeed, the Tremere and Tzimisce are the two most developed Clans in terms of NPCs, Clan Culture, and history. A large part of this being the focus given them during the Omen War during the Dark Ages. The Tremere may need Thaumaturgy but what makes them awesome is their rigid heirarchies, past sins, feuds, and houses. The same with the Tzimisce.

          5. The shitposting has got to stop. I'm happy to keep my tongue but fundamentally no one on these forums should ever put down another fan's favorite faction. If you like the Brujah or you like the Baali, if you like the Sabbat or the True Hand, you are welcome here in the OPP forums. People who love High Humanity Salubri Healers are just as much vampire fans as Thin Blood Alchemists and Path of Caine Sabbat. Literally, all fans are welcome (except of World of Darkness: Gypsies and Eternal Hearts--you stay away )

          6. I don't think the Old Clan are necessarily as defined by a lack of Vicissitude as the New Clan is defined by it. If you gave the Old Clan Vicissitude then they'd not actually change that much as the lack of it was just important in the DIRTY SECRETS OF THE BLACK HAND book. Elsewhere, it's not really important with the Inconnu members of the faction or its history/factions since they became the basis (retroactively) of the Dark Age Tzimisce despite those having a heavy focus on Vicissitude.

          7. I think what attracts me most to the Tzimisce in general (and not just the Old Clan) is the NPCs: Radu, Vladimir Rustovich, Dracula, Lambach Ruthven, and Shaagra are some of the most interesting characters in the setting.
          I agree almost a 100% with this post. Thanks a lot for having written it.

          Except...
          5) I have both Eternal Hearts and WoD: G... and have several times thought about re-reading them to dissect them and try to find a sliver of something good in their pages. I guess I should renounce my heresy and commit to stop sinning... ()

          7) I don't know who Shaagra is, but I love all the other Tzimisce characters you have mentioned. Oh, I specially love... the Dracon? The one that lived in Constantinople with the Tzimisce monks...?

          (Have I mentioned I absolutely LOVE the Tismanu, the Slavic vampire priests in The Ordo Dracul and would LOVE to translate them into Masquerade terms?)


          "No, no, don't look any further, my profile is actually more handsome than me"

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          • Originally posted by Alqamar Alaswad View Post
            (Have I mentioned I absolutely LOVE the Tismanu, the Slavic vampire priests in The Ordo Dracul and would LOVE to translate them into Masquerade terms?)
            To which sect would they belong? Geographically, I would think Sabbat or independent Tzimisce, but I can't see them being tolerated by either. Maybe in the Camarilla as principals of faith?

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            • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

              To which sect would they belong? Geographically, I would think Sabbat or independent Tzimisce, but I can't see them being tolerated by either. Maybe in the Camarilla as principals of faith?

              I'm not sure... They would be interesting as Principals of Faith, that's for sure... Time to check my Ordo Dracul sourcebook and my Vampire Translation Guide...


              "No, no, don't look any further, my profile is actually more handsome than me"

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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                This isn't a 5th Edition addition.

                Old Clan was always what the Tzimisce were called outside of the Sabbat. Unlike the Lasombra, they never had an Antitribu.
                It’s not that simple, as the “Old Clan” was originally presented as a separate bloodline with different disciplines, which the line has been walking back from since then. It is an evolution of the concept to say that the Old Clan is a political designation like Red Nosferatu or Hellenic Brujah.

                Mind you, 99.99% of all Tzimisce not part of the Sabbat are going to be Old Clan Tzimisce.
                If the Old Clan are the non-Sabbat Tzimisce, why would they only make up 99.99% of Tzimisce outside the Sabbat? That figure seems about 0.01% off.

                In any case, the real innovation in V5 seems to be finally getting over the notion, which every prior edition kept trying to sell us, that the Tzimisce are universally too edgelordy to be interested in Camarilla membership, even though that’s the obvious allegiance for those who reject the Sabbat and prefer to play up their clan’s noble heritage.
                Last edited by Black Flag; 06-26-2020, 03:19 PM.

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                • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                  If the Old Clan are the non-Sabbat Tzimisce, why would they only make up 99.99% of Tzimisce outside the Sabbat? That figure seems about 0.01% off.
                  Because the Sabbat Tzmisce are infected with Vicissitude and thus slaves of the Eldest. There's also no Camarilla Tzimisce because they have nothing to offer that the Inconnu or Black Hand doesn't.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Because the Sabbat Tzmisce are infected with Vicissitude and thus slaves of the Eldest. There's also no Camarilla Tzimisce because they have nothing to offer that the Inconnu or Black Hand doesn't.
                    That’s just repeating stuff from last edition, none of which may still be true. I will absolutely astonished if the Old Clan designation in V5 has anything to do with what disciplines they practice. Also, the Inconnu and Tal’Mahe’Ra are not about to factor into Tzimisce sect choices in V5, as they have not been mentioned to date, and one of the main design principles of V5 is decoupling clan from sect, so that they follow the same rules regardless of their allegiance, and so that characters of any clan can be in any sect.

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                    • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                      In any case, the real innovation in V5 seems to be finally getting over the notion, which every prior edition kept trying to sell us, that the Tzimisce are universally too edgelordy to be interested in Camarilla membership, even though that’s the obvious allegiance for those who reject the Sabbat and prefer to play up their clan’s noble heritage.
                      no, the innovation is the fact that "noble heritage" can work in the Camarilla (assuming it's the case, which I highly doubt)

                      in previous editions (specifically Revised and 2nd ed), Camarilla was not the choice for those who wanted to keep playing Kings,
                      for that, you had to go sabbat or independant,

                      not only the Tzimisce, but also the Ventrue,
                      those who held onto their feudal mindsets became ventrue antitribu and allied to the Tzimisce

                      and, contrary to what most players think, the sabbat Tzimisce still played kings,
                      which is probably why alot of antitribu still sold out to the lasombra despite the abuses

                      even in modern nights, you had neofeudalists,
                      and other tzimisce officials pushing to allow tzimisce to hold domain officially,
                      if it weren't for the lasombra, they would've gotten it


                      I get why people get confused about this,
                      but it's important to remember that the Camarilla party line was to hide from humanity, and the sabbat one was to lord over it,

                      most sabbat shared that stance, they just didn't agree on the timing,
                      some wanted it now, others were fine waiting for the right time
                      Last edited by Pleiades; 06-26-2020, 04:12 PM.


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                      • Yep, the Tzimisce and most of the Sabbat want to usher in the time when Vampires ruled semi-openly before the everything got fudged when they utilized mortal inquisitors to kill eachother- which allowed the manipulated proxied hunters to wizen up to what was going on and begin the "First" Inquisition in the Dark Ages. Atleast from what I remember.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                          no, the innovation is the fact that "noble heritage" can work in the Camarilla (assuming it's the case, which I highly doubt).
                          It’s the sect most concerned with purity of lineage, tradition, and aristocracy. Most of the Traditions serve no purpose other than to enshrine the traditional rights of elders as exclusive to princes within their domain. Princedom in the Camarilla isn’t quite the unaccountable autarchy it was in the medieval era, but it’s the next best thing, and the Camarilla remains the most feudal sect in terms of structure.

                          Ruling openly over mortals isn’t what I was talking about, nor do I see that as important to the Tzimisce clan identity. Even then, the Camarilla holds the most influence over mortal institutions. The Sabbat’s throwback institutions were never ostensibly about rulership but holy knighthood etc. it was always the Church to the Camarilla’s secular aristocracy. The entire orientation was different, along with the politics.

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                          • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                            It’s the sect most concerned with purity of lineage, tradition, and aristocracy. Most of the Traditions serve no purpose other than to enshrine the traditional rights of elders as exclusive to princes within their domain. Princedom in the Camarilla isn’t quite the unaccountable autarchy it was in the medieval era, but it’s the next best thing, and the Camarilla remains the most feudal sect in terms of structure.

                            Ruling openly over mortals isn’t what I was talking about, nor do I see that as important to the Tzimisce clan identity. Even then, the Camarilla holds the most influence over mortal institutions. The Sabbat’s throwback institutions were never ostensibly about rulership but holy knighthood etc. it was always the Church to the Camarilla’s secular aristocracy. The entire orientation was different, along with the politics.
                            A couple of points:

                            1. The big issue for the Tzimisce is the Tremere's place enshrined in its halls.

                            2. The Sabbat's use of clerical investiture was meant to be IRONIC.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                              Ruling openly over mortals isn’t what I was talking about, nor do I see that as important to the Tzimisce clan identity.
                              it isn't important? ( CTPhipps see? Tzimisce are just Ventrue with Vicissitude)

                              alright, let's say you are right and it isn't important,
                              then explain these to me:

                              - where did sabbat get their "lord over humanity" shtick? was it the lasombra? cause it sure wasn't the Brujah
                              - what's the purpose of the oradea league? (Independants)
                              - what's with Tzimisce neofeudalists
                              - Tzimisce having whole villages of ghouls
                              - Tzimisce ruling over latin america as Aztec gods?
                              - that regency canditate that wanted offically recognized domains for Tzimisce?
                              - the voivodes and whatever equivalent they have to the amici noctis

                              how is that not important to their identity?

                              The Sabbat’s throwback institutions were never ostensibly about rulership but holy knighthood etc. it was always the Church to the Camarilla’s secular aristocracy. The entire orientation was different, along with the politics.
                              I'm not sure if you're talking about the clergy or something else,

                              neofeudalists aren't part of the clergy,
                              neither are paths of enlightenment, black hand, the amici noctis, the loyalists, the blood cults and whatever elder holds authority without being a Bishop

                              and the sabbat consistory is not restricted to clergy members

                              not that it matters, since, unlike the Camarilla, the clergy doesn't recognize the masquerade in any official capacity,
                              so neofeudalists and cults and shit are...well, legal,
                              the Archbishops can't and don't act against them on grounds of protecting the masquerade
                              Last edited by Pleiades; 06-28-2020, 09:41 AM.


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                              • Honestly, I don't see what Ventrue and Tzimisce have in common other than they're both "noble" clans. It seems a very shallow comparison.

                                Like saying, "Giovanni are just Ventrue with Necromancy."


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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