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Thematic change: no in-clan sorcery

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  • Thematic change: no in-clan sorcery

    One house rule I've been toying around with is making Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, and so on always count as out-of-clan disciplines. After all, in-clan disciplines are generally things you can develop on your own without access to a teacher (a fledgeling Gangrel abandoned in the wilderness will figure out Protean just fine on their own), and that's not how sorcery works: you need a Chantry, a library, a mentor, or if nothing else a huge amount of time and magic(k)al knowledge to derive it from first principles.

    Right off the bat, would this break any established laws of the setting? The Tremere, Giovanni, and a few scattered bloodlines would need a new in-clan discipline, but that's not hard to arrange. And independent Tremere without a Chantry would be somewhat more screwed, but they were screwed already (look what happened to the Antitribu).

    (The idea is generally edition-agnostic; for V5, add the Banu Haqim to the list of clans that need a new discipline, the rest stays the same.)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
    One house rule I've been toying around with is making Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, and so on always count as out-of-clan disciplines. After all, in-clan disciplines are generally things you can develop on your own without access to a teacher (a fledgeling Gangrel abandoned in the wilderness will figure out Protean just fine on their own), and that's not how sorcery works: you need a Chantry, a library, a mentor, or if nothing else a huge amount of time and magic(k)al knowledge to derive it from first principles.

    Right off the bat, would this break any established laws of the setting? The Tremere, Giovanni, and a few scattered bloodlines would need a new in-clan discipline, but that's not hard to arrange. And independent Tremere without a Chantry would be somewhat more screwed, but they were screwed already (look what happened to the Antitribu).

    (The idea is generally edition-agnostic; for V5, add the Banu Haqim to the list of clans that need a new discipline, the rest stays the same.)
    No discipline, not even physical ones can be learned effortlessly without a teacher. That said I could see this working in older editions when Thaumaturgy was arguably overpowered and certain clans had flaws that some Storytellers often failed to employ (namely Tremere IF the ST forgot the Pyramid was there to exploit you). In V5 Blood Sorcery is in line with other disciplines powerwise so there's no mechanical reason to implement such a change.

    From a flavor prospective I can see this making some sense but it's such a small nitpick I feel like there's little need for such an houserule.
    Last edited by Haquim; 06-29-2020, 05:30 PM.

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    • #3
      I don't think that would work,
      because exponential progression systems are really bad, increasing the costs makes it worse,

      it's already a problem with disciplines, it's even worse with magic because the starting powers are rather limited,

      it doesn't balance anything, it increases the gap between magic noobs and veterans, as the veterans have access to over powered disciplines/magic, while the noobs are stuck with entry level stuff for even longer (due to the cost increase)


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      • #4
        I think that it would make sense from a narrative setting perspective and it could potentially help an ST mechanically depending on their desires.

        I would wonder whether these clans would gain a slightly easier access to the abilities or if there IC access via their lineage be the primary benefit.

        The next question I see rising from this is what disciplines to provide the clans to replace Necromancy or Thaumaturgy.

        I could potentially see 'Fortitude' for the Giovanni and either 'Celerity' or 'Obfuscate' for the Trenere, particularly the latter, but any of these do definitely effect the setting relations at large.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
          The next question I see rising from this is what disciplines to provide the clans to replace Necromancy or Thaumaturgy.

          I could potentially see 'Fortitude' for the Giovanni and either 'Celerity' or 'Obfuscate' for the Trenere, particularly the latter, but any of these do definitely effect the setting relations at large.
          True. That should probably factor in also. I'd give the Gios Auspex (from their Cappadocian ancestors, also may let you perceive ghosts depending on edition) and the Tremere…hmm. Celerity does seem fitting in a weird way, now that you mention it.

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          • #6
            I think it's partially that iirc the Tremere are one of *two* mainline clans that don't have a physical in-clan discipline (including Viccissitude & Serpentis for what I expect are obvious reasons). The other being Clan Malkavian whose basically got the lack of physical abilities as part of their sctick.

            I could also see Auspex definitely working for Clan Giovanni too, now that you mention it. It would be an invaluable skill for any necromancer really.

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            • #7
              give them fortitude or animalism,
              since they got their powers from Salubri and tzimisce


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              • #8
                I think it upsets a lot of things just to highlight something the setting already acknowledges to be the case. In V5 Blood Sorcery needs a teacher, which is why the clans who specialize in it have apprenticeships built into their clan culture, and those who fall outside the main body of the clan seek out tomes etc. But if you really don’t want to bother with that stuff, it’s not like every member of the clan will practice that discipline anyway.

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                • #9
                  I think it is in their blood that they've got easy access to magic. For instance, the Assamite sorcerer weakness is that you have a big, impressive aura and it makes your obfuscate less effective, and it's theorized this is because the sorcerers are briming with power in their blood.

                  I think, every bloodline with some kind of blood sorcery as an in-clan will seek out some kind of belief system that will let them work magic. If a Tremere is embraced and set free they'll embrace something to let them cast spells. Maybe they'll look to paganizm, or new age practices, they'll believe in aliens and psychics, or they'll put their blood into technology and code the world around them. So long as they have enough blood to experiment with they will find that some beliefs become very real when you apply vitae.


                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                    No discipline, not even physical ones can be learned effortlessly without a teacher. That said I could see this working in older editions when Thaumaturgy was arguably overpowered and certain clans had flaws that some Storytellers often failed to employ (namely Tremere IF the ST forgot the Pyramid was there to exploit you). In V5 Blood Sorcery is in line with other disciplines powerwise so there's no mechanical reason to implement such a change.

                    From a flavor prospective I can see this making some sense but it's such a small nitpick I feel like there's little need for such an houserule.
                    That is not true, there are some wunderkinder from the Tremere, that can learn Thaumaturgy as an autodidakt. Though those are the exception then the rule.


                    As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                    First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                    Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Koronus View Post

                      That is not true, there are some wunderkinder from the Tremere, that can learn Thaumaturgy as an autodidakt. Though those are the exception then the rule.
                      I'm sorry what did I write that is not true exactly? I specified that it always takes effort to learn disciplines without a teacher (most of the times it takes effort even with a teacher...), the fact that some Tremere can learn thaumaturgy without teachers doesn't mean they can do so by just snapping their fingers and learning rituals and powers...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                        I'm sorry what did I write that is not true exactly? I specified that it always takes effort to learn disciplines without a teacher (most of the times it takes effort even with a teacher...), the fact that some Tremere can learn thaumaturgy without teachers doesn't mean they can do so by just snapping their fingers and learning rituals and powers...
                        I have to apologize. I made a fail on my language skill and so did not understand something correct.


                        As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                        First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                        Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Koronus View Post

                          I have to apologize. I made a fail on my language skill and so did not understand something correct.
                          Don't worry it happens to the best of us.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I think it is in their blood that they've got easy access to magic. For instance, the Assamite sorcerer weakness is that you have a big, impressive aura and it makes your obfuscate less effective, and it's theorized this is because the sorcerers are briming with power in their blood.

                            I think, every bloodline with some kind of blood sorcery as an in-clan will seek out some kind of belief system that will let them work magic. If a Tremere is embraced and set free they'll embrace something to let them cast spells. Maybe they'll look to paganizm, or new age practices, they'll believe in aliens and psychics, or they'll put their blood into technology and code the world around them. So long as they have enough blood to experiment with they will find that some beliefs become very real when you apply vitae.
                            Yes, the Tremere have an affinity for learning Thaumaturgy due to their sorcerous blood. Any vampire really can learn blood magic with the right tutelage, provided they are intelligent enough. It's just that the Tremere have a natural gift for it, probably due to their blood link to Tremere himself. That's why it's in clan for them, because it's easier for them to learn, not because they can learn it automatically without help, as OP suggests.

                            In fact, the Tremere actually have a ritual which grants the ability to learn Thaumaturgy at in clan costs to other outsiders, but it's extremely long and painful, and presumably they won't use it on just any old vampire either, you probably have to be very trusted by the Tremere.

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                            • #15
                              I suppose if I were to run a game in which Tremere don't have Thaumaturgy in-clan, I would replace it with Animalism. This would allow for lots of wizard-ey stuff like black-cat familiars, and murders of crows flying around the chantries. I figure the Tremere are pretty much Old Clan Tzimisce with a new weakness.

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