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Thematic change: no in-clan sorcery

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
    give them fortitude or animalism,
    since they got their powers from Salubri and tzimisce
    This and discussion of Tremere clan Disciplines without Thaumaturgy reminded me of something I had considered a while back, kind of a fan-theory. Do people think that the Tremere always had Thaumaturgy as a clan Discipline, even before they discovered/invented/stole it, or did they originally have a different third Discipline before using a Thaumaturgical ritual (or Tremere's Antediluvian power over his Blood) to make Thaumaturgy an in-clan Discipline? I think this also relates somewhat to the broader question of whether any clans should have blood magic in-clan; it may not make sense as a natural occurrence, but potentially an artificial product of blood magic (learned out-of-clan)?

    As for my fan theory: looking at the Tremeres' other in-clan Disciplines, Auspex and Dominate, and considering what we know about where they got their vitae for the ritual, my theory is that they juiced a Dominate/"Old Clan" Tzimisce, and therefore Animalism would be their third in-clan Discipline without Thaumaturgy.

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    • #17
      I think Tremere having thaumaturgy in clan was the legacy of 1st edition,
      that was before they had any solid lore,
      and before the devs bothered thinking about in-universe logic

      iirc, Tremere didn't have thaumatugy at all after turning into abominations,
      they had to develop it over time,

      so, you could theorize that they don't really have it in clan,
      but due to the perecedent set by earliest editions, and the unwillingness of the devs to retcon too much,
      it stays stuck as an in-clan discipline

      that said, I need to point out that Tremere are not the only ones getting that treatment,
      in early revised for example, Tzimisce koldun got thaumaturgy in-clan instead of vicissitude (with a penalty to magic resistance),
      Assamite Viziers got in-clan thaumaturgy instead of celerity (with a penalty on blood costs),
      and infernalists got an in-clan discount


      -

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kharnov View Post

        This and discussion of Tremere clan Disciplines without Thaumaturgy reminded me of something I had considered a while back, kind of a fan-theory. Do people think that the Tremere always had Thaumaturgy as a clan Discipline, even before they discovered/invented/stole it, or did they originally have a different third Discipline before using a Thaumaturgical ritual (or Tremere's Antediluvian power over his Blood) to make Thaumaturgy an in-clan Discipline? I think this also relates somewhat to the broader question of whether any clans should have blood magic in-clan; it may not make sense as a natural occurrence, but potentially an artificial product of blood magic (learned out-of-clan)?

        As for my fan theory: looking at the Tremeres' other in-clan Disciplines, Auspex and Dominate, and considering what we know about where they got their vitae for the ritual, my theory is that they juiced a Dominate/"Old Clan" Tzimisce, and therefore Animalism would be their third in-clan Discipline without Thaumaturgy.
        It's actually known that the Tremere did not have Thaumaturgy right after they changed themselves into vampires.

        Keep in mind that:

        1. At the time there were just a few of them (basically the Council of 7 and Tremere).
        2. Most of them, Goratrix included, were expecting the potion to make them immortal WITH true magic. They never expected the change to destroy their avatars.
        3. Tremere knew what was going to happen but he was convinced magic was dying so he chose to go along with Goratrix's experiment sacrificing his avatar in exchange for immortality.
        4. After the deed was done there was much conflict between the members of teh Council but Tremere stepped in and was able to make them work together towards a common goal, transitioning themselves from obscure self made bloodline to fully fledged clan.
        5. The early Tremere kept masquerading as mages while applying hermetic principles to their blood which was they recognized as a source of magical power although predictable and "linear", that's how they invented their own brand of blood magic.
        6. At the same time Tremere set in motion plans to lower his own generation and that of the seven too. After diablerizing a 4th gen vampire (IIRC under Rome) he set his sight on Saulot as he knew he needed 3rd generation blood if he wanted his bloodline to be considered a clan (and he was supremely power hungry... that always was his defining characteristic).
        7. Meanwhile the rest of House Tremere magi were quietely being converted to vampirism, eliminated or forced to flee, this process gained speed after Tremere apparently successful diablerie of Saulot.

        In short: the Tremere did not start with Thaumaturgy as an in clan discipline as they had to invent it from scratch while building the clan from the Hermetic House they were. BUT when they DID become a clan they had Thaumaturgy and it's also worth noting newly created Tremere were teached the discipline on a mandatory basis because the clan heavily relied on it to fend off its many enemies (the Tzimisce and the Horder of Hermes, to a lesser extent the Gangrel and Nosferatu clan and the Shadow Lords werewolves...) so the Tremre having Thaumaturgy is partly due to their blood but mostly to the way the warlocks built themselves as a clan.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Haquim View Post

          It's actually known that the Tremere did not have Thaumaturgy right after they changed themselves into vampires.

          Keep in mind that:

          1. At the time there were just a few of them (basically the Council of 7 and Tremere).
          2. Most of them, Goratrix included, were expecting the potion to make them immortal WITH true magic. They never expected the change to destroy their avatars.
          3. Tremere knew what was going to happen but he was convinced magic was dying so he chose to go along with Goratrix's experiment sacrificing his avatar in exchange for immortality.
          4. After the deed was done there was much conflict between the members of teh Council but Tremere stepped in and was able to make them work together towards a common goal, transitioning themselves from obscure self made bloodline to fully fledged clan.
          5. The early Tremere kept masquerading as mages while applying hermetic principles to their blood which was they recognized as a source of magical power although predictable and "linear", that's how they invented their own brand of blood magic.
          6. At the same time Tremere set in motion plans to lower his own generation and that of the seven too. After diablerizing a 4th gen vampire (IIRC under Rome) he set his sight on Saulot as he knew he needed 3rd generation blood if he wanted his bloodline to be considered a clan (and he was supremely power hungry... that always was his defining characteristic).
          7. Meanwhile the rest of House Tremere magi were quietely being converted to vampirism, eliminated or forced to flee, this process gained speed after Tremere apparently successful diablerie of Saulot.

          In short: the Tremere did not start with Thaumaturgy as an in clan discipline as they had to invent it from scratch while building the clan from the Hermetic House they were. BUT when they DID become a clan they had Thaumaturgy and it's also worth noting newly created Tremere were teached the discipline on a mandatory basis because the clan heavily relied on it to fend off its many enemies (the Tzimisce and the Horder of Hermes, to a lesser extent the Gangrel and Nosferatu clan and the Shadow Lords werewolves...) so the Tremre having Thaumaturgy is partly due to their blood but mostly to the way the warlocks built themselves as a clan.
          Hello, and thanks for the response When I spoke about the fact that the Tremere had to "discover/invent/steal" Thaumaturgy above, I was referring to precisely what you're saying here, that it took time for them to construct the Paths/"Paradigm/Tradition" of their Hermetic brand of Blood Magic. But as previous posters have noted, there is at least one pre-existing example (in lore/canon history) of Cainites with a form of Blood Magic as an in-clan Discipline, the Banu Haqim Sorcerers; this continues to hold up in V5, where all Banu Haqim are depicted with generic "Blood Sorcery" as an in-clan Discipline (I prefer to imagine the Castes still being different bloodlines with different Discipline spreads within the Clan. But I digress). My question is whether or not the Tremere always had an in-clan "talent" for (generic) "Blood Sorcery" even before they invented/discovered/stole their particular Hermetic brand of Blood Magic, Thaumaturgy. Aside from academic interest, it only really matters if one were playing a chronicle during the period where the Tremere have not yet developed Thaumaturgy into a Discipline.
          Last edited by Kharnov; 07-01-2020, 01:33 PM.

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          • #20
            There's also the Cappadocians and Nagarajah that have Necromancy in clan, so more precedence for sorcery being in clan. Personally I'd still give the Tremere in clan Sorcery from the beginning, since they were wizards and had a predisposition towards it. They weren't reinventing the wheel from scratch, so to speak, they were adapting what they knew to be fueled by blood rather than will. Tremere and his inner circle may have already had mental attributes above 5s (at least pre-V5), so being ungodly geniuses, it may not have taken as much time for them to adapt their magic. They also weren't necessarily just Tzimisce in the early days. Who knows how the potion they drank and the ritual they performed could have screwed with things? Obviously that's my head canon for them being different, but I think it makes sense they could have messed with the blood to become something new.

            There's also some mention in some of the books, that Tremere may not have been an awakened mage, he could have been a sorcerer. There was a lot less distinction in the middle ages between being awakened and practicing hedge magick. A lot of the mages themselves probably couldn't even tell the difference with their paradigms being so strong, a lack of willingness to examine other ways of doing things and the spheres not being codified and all. It was more "you do things the same way I do and get the same results, we're the same order" even though the mechanics under the hood were different.

            The V20 Black Hand book also had some mechanics for when a mage gets embraced and let them convert half their spheres/hedge magic into dots in Thaumaturgy or Necromancy.

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            • #21
              The tremere actually work like a covenant from requiem...more of a sect than a clan

              Personally I use them in as a mixture of a bloodline and a tier 3 conspiracy who get their particular form of blood magic not by actually knowing magic but by using the blood bond to connect to the founder they have sealed under viena and channel his magick power.

              That said the Tremere until the diablerie of saulot where caitiff so chances are they didnt had in-clan disciplines per se...
              Last edited by Leandro16; 07-01-2020, 03:05 PM.


              https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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              • #22
                About having like Coldunism Thaumathurgy nor Necromancy as an inclan disciple would be okay with. Because the in clan disciple only saves them until lvl 5 but all those secondary paths are always costing the same cheap price no matter of inclan, outclan or being a caitiff. So if we go to those Blood Magic Disciples are outclan that make space for another disciple that goes up to 10 and would profit more if you are a low generation clan vampire.


                As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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