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Justin Achilli is now the Brand Creative Lead for the World of Darkness

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  • the restrictive nature of humanity makes vampires seem more humane than humans, which is paradoxical,
    it also prevents certain character types for vampires

    you can make a human serial killer that just kills and then...well, carries on killing,
    you can make them an unfeeling psycopath or a pervert who takes pleasure from blood

    however, a vampire serial killer is forced to feel remorse and cry about their actions every time they succeed on the conscience roll,
    the alternative being degeneration and wassail

    you can't have that vampire be a total unremorseful cold killer,
    at least not with humanity,
    you need a path like path of power or path of death or something to make it possible


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    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      I loved them for being alternatives to Humanity, for allowing inhuman monsters to be exactly that: inhuman, not 'low humanity' or 'immoral' but having a completely different morality entirely, and really allowing us to get down into the weeds about alternate morality, the nature of evil, the power of intellect vs instinct, the nature of the Beast etc, in a way Humanity alone simply doesn't, and cannot. IMHO any vampire clinging to Humanity is a delusional time bomb primed to wassail, and that should be hammered home. Hard. (Plus alternate routes to Golconda was really interesting)
      This^

      A nonhuman species clinging to humanity is absurd, and that absurdity should be reflected mechanically. Far more logical to adopt beliefs that synergize with what they actually are.

      In my Sabbat game, I reflect this by having the Cammie NPCs all have very low humanity, because they are attempting something impossible, ignorant, and absurd. I really play up how physically degenerated their appearance is due to low humanity, making them look like severe addicts or late stage cancer victims. One of the methods that the players are using to convert Cammies is simply offering them a sane alternative to humanity.

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      • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

        This^

        A nonhuman species clinging to humanity is absurd, and that absurdity should be reflected mechanically. Far more logical to adopt beliefs that synergize with what they actually are.
        It's a nature vs. nurture conflict and the source of what I think is the strongest element of the setting.

        A vampire is naturally a predator and it is easy to give into that.

        However, a vampire is a person raised to be human.

        In simple terms, "Yes, you can be true to your nature but then you are evil and deserve to be destroyed."



        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
          A nonhuman species clinging to humanity is absurd.
          Absurdity is a tenet of existentialism. As such, the nature of the conflict between a nonhuman entity clinging on to their humanity is what gives the game its personal horror motif. I think this is what people are getting at.

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          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
            Absurdity is a tenet of existentialism. As such, the nature of the conflict between a nonhuman entity clinging on to their humanity is what gives the game its personal horror motif. I think this is what people are getting at.
            I think it's a neat little trick:

            To be a Sabbat is to be happy being a vampire.

            But is there any reason a sane person would want to be happy being a vampire?
            Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-05-2020, 04:16 AM.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              But is there any reason a sane person would want to be happy being a vampire?
              a beast I am least a Beast I become


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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I think it's a neat little trick:

                To be a Sabbat is to be happy being a vampire.

                But is there any reason a sane person would want to be happy being a vampire?
                I mean, i'm not sane, but if i couldn't play a vampire who could be happy about it, i would never have played the game. Don't have to be Sabbat to enjoy being a Lord of the Night (TM)


                Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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                • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

                  I mean, i'm not sane, but if i couldn't play a vampire who could be happy about it, i would never have played the game. Don't have to be Sabbat to enjoy being a Lord of the Night (TM)
                  Yes, I'm just saying that being forced to be a serial killer to gain superpowers is not something sane people are happy about.

                  Why I'm a Malkavian.

                  Most "normal" vampires eventually become as bad as mob bosses and sociopaths but they don't Embrace the pure evil of it all.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Yes, I'm just saying that being forced to be a serial killer to gain superpowers is not something sane people are happy about.
                    people are happy to slaughter sheep and cows to eat steak,
                    would you call these people insane?

                    replace sheep with humans and people with vampires and you're set


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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      But is there any reason a sane person would want to be happy being a vampire?
                      If the alternatives are suicide or an eternity of misery, is there any reason a sane person wouldn't want to?

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                      • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                        people are happy to slaughter sheep and cows to eat steak,
                        would you call these people insane?

                        replace sheep with humans and people with vampires and you're set
                        Yes, this is the attitude of an insane person to humans.

                        Because the people around you are ones that you identify as exactly like yourself. They love, they care, they cry, and they like Star Wars.

                        You can turn that off but then you become a mindless evil creature. Which is why it's a curse.

                        Not much of a story if you get all the perks for free, is there?

                        Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                        If the alternatives are suicide or an eternity of misery, is there any reason a sane person wouldn't want to?
                        Question: from your moral perspective, if you had the option of killing a person a year to stay alive forever, would you do it?

                        For many ethical systems, that makes you an evil person.

                        It is also the fundamental moral dilemma of a vampire. If you choose to say, "Yes, I would do it and not feel guilty about it" then that's good but everyone is justified in destroying said person. Humans to protect themselves and other vampires because that person is a monster.

                        There's also the fact you can't actually do it because you then go insane and become a feral wild animal. There's no easy way out. Even the Sabbat's Paths aren't actually a cure because you have to shove your mind into an alien fanatical cult mindset. If you think Vykos is "happy" a monster, I'd question your interpretation of the Paths.

                        He's a fanatical nutjob,
                        Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-05-2020, 05:23 PM.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          Yes, this is the attitude of an insane person to humans.

                          Because the people around you are ones that you identify as exactly like yourself. They love, they care, they cry, and they like Star Wars.

                          You can turn that off but then you become a mindless evil creature. Which is why it's a curse.

                          Not much of a story if you get all the perks for free, is there?



                          Question: from your moral perspective, if you had the option of killing a person a year to stay alive forever, would you do it?

                          For many ethical systems, that makes you an evil person.

                          It is also the fundamental moral dilemma of a vampire. If you choose to say, "Yes, I would do it and not feel guilty about it" then that's good but everyone is justified in destroying said person. Humans to protect themselves and other vampires because that person is a monster.

                          There's also the fact you can't actually do it because you then go insane and become a feral wild animal. There's no easy way out. Even the Sabbat's Paths aren't actually a cure because you have to shove your mind into an alien fanatical cult mindset. If you think Vykos is "happy" a monster, I'd question your interpretation of the Paths.

                          He's a fanatical nutjob,
                          Fanatics can be happy, can be content, can be rational, in a completely alien mindset, and that is the attraction, I want the Lestat of Interview, or Armand, or the Vampires of the Dusk til Dawn series, Humanity holds no attraction, no matter how rearranged it is, I want that transhuman predator, not the human with a weird diet and anger issues. Subspecies, The Strain and 30 Days of Night, not Lost Boys.

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