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  • Originally posted by Gubenyochi View Post

    1.) His writing style (for example vampire have to be "EVIL" vs Grey) is the antithesis of everything good about Vampire the Masquerade.

    2.) He releases incomplete products that skip sections half way through, see 1st ed Dark Ages ST guide it literally goes from a rule description to mid sentence of fluff.

    3) His general sense of arrogance with regards to issues like that of number 2. I asked about the missing content and if there would be an errata containing it and he told me very nicely to piss off. This is the kind of interactions I've seen him have with people who don't worship him.

    4) He has a "one true way" to play vampire and hates fans who are having fun wrong. You can find this in numerous interview with him.

    Is that better, now that it includes examples?

    I'm sure his "one true way" vision aligns more with V5 than with Revised or V20, which is why I'm not surprised. For me, it just removes all hope that V5 will ever evolve to incorporate styles of play that are "wrong" in his eyes aka something I'd actually want to play.
    Regarding the non-personal points, I'm inclined to agree. To be honest, I'm absolutely ambigious about Justin Achilli's work on Vampire.

    - I loved Revised as a whole and I believe, to this day, that the Revised corebook was the best VtM corebook (with V20 being close second, but its place and intention is different). I also loved the visual style of Revised the best and also the dark and gritty style all-in-all, including the writing.

    - However, I absolutely despise the holier-than-thou, badwrongfun-bashing, condescending attitude some of the Revised books had (particularly, the ST's Guide) regarding players and playstyles the writers and the lead dev (Achilli) didn't deem "appropriate".

    - He was the lead dev of Requiem. I'm not a fan of Requiem and that VtM got "killed". Leave it at that.

    - As I mentioned in my previous post, for me, Anarchs Unbound is the best Anarch guidebook so far.


    So, on my front, his work on VtM includes positive and negative stuff in nearly equal measure. However, this isn't really important. I tend to agree that his preferences regarding Vampire might be closer to V5, than to earlier editions, based on the above points, so I'm not waiting for any big changes, which means V5 remains uninteresting to me. It's like with Mr Dawkins, really. He did excellent job on the V20 books, but he himself said on FB a few days ago that he prefers VtR and it shows in his V5 works, IMO. This is not a critique, it just means that they are both professional enough that when they wrote for V20, they kept to the "confines" of the earlier material and done books I love, while when they've done something outside that (VtR and V5 respectively) it didn't meet my tastes. So I'm not holding my breath.

    On the other hand, it's equally funny and sad that Martin, who set the route for V5 the most, isn't on the team for a time, while V5 is supposedly well-received. I'm not a fan of V5 but really, it was mostly his baby and I don't hate him as a person, like some people here. I just don't really like his version of VtM. Incidentally, he said too, that VtR might be the better game, but VtM sold a lot more.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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    • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      I don't understand the whole "personal horror" spiel of WoD in general. The whole appeal and appoint of games like VTM, WTA, WTO, MTA, CTO, and others is that you play the ROLE as the horror itself and the interesting abilities, intrigues, politics and rivalries that come with it. What's all this stuff about personal horror that is mentioned everywhere for? What's its real purpose?
      That's more-or-less why I'm saying that, for me, WoD isn't a pure (personal)horror game/universe. For me, it's dark urban fantasy, with strong horror themes between the gamelines. I love me some horror, but I couldn't care less for the übergrimdarkholypersonalhorror style of playing, to be honest and it always irked me to no end. Incidentally, Wraith never appealed to me, at all. It interests me only as background stuff for crossovers.

      Ultimately, I think this is/was/will ever be the biggest conflict in the WoD fandom, including writers. Requiem and V5 (and revised, to a lesser extent) were both an attempt to "go back to the personal horror roots" of the game, accentuating only that part and not acknowledging that the dark urban fantasy style (derisively called vampions and all that nonsense) was as much a part of VtM through its run and part of its success and that many people preferred that style.

      That was the genius of the 20th lines: they gave tools and didn't force any style on you.

      Again, VtM let you play Louis and Lestat too, equally. VtR and V5 wants you to play only Louis and forces on you a particular style, both in the rules and the setting. If you want that particular style, good for you. If not, well, see ya and thanks for all the fish. It was a bad strategy back then and it is now.
      Last edited by PMárk; 07-03-2020, 07:41 PM.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        What is Personal Horror?
        I think the more Personal Horror I got was when I had roughly this discussion with my player
        "So, you're a Tremere and you've gone out of your way to learn Necromancy just to meet your old brother that died killed by your abusive father while defending you as a child"
        "Yes"
        "And now that you summoned him as a ghost, you learned that in the Shadowlands he fights eternal beings older than civilization in a war that can't be won"
        "Exactly"
        "So, to keep him safe you sealed him in the only fetter you found, bringing it with you everywhere."
        "Yeah!"
        "Which is, incidentally the fireplace's poker that was used to kill him. And you bring this goddamn iron item everywhere you go instead than keeping it safe because basically his whole existence depends on that poker. But he is also locked inside so that he'll be forced to spend the eternity speaking only with you, unable to attain whatever he was trying to do for the whole 35 years that passed from the moment he died and when you finally managed to summon him?! Only because you obsessively need to know you want him to be safe for your own self-satisfaction?"
        -Moment of silence-
        "Damn... I became an abusive parent!"

        And that's much it. He was honestly horrified his character had became basically a monster that was telling to himself the old story of "I'm good, I'm doing it for them". It was later resolved and we had a lot of interesting developments, but was a great moment.







        That said, I feel that Personal Horrors and Vampions aren't mutually exclusive, as long as you got storytellers and players that can invest on the characters.


        VTM: Dark Shores: Lineages of the Great Lakes
        VTM: Fingers of the Eldest: Bogatyri
        WTA: Forgotten Alliances

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          What is Personal Horror?

          * Dave goes to his high school reunion ten years later, having been a vampire for a couple of years.
          * Dave was a bullied nerd and is now a vampire and a part of him really wants to show up the people that abused him as a child.
          * Dave is tempted to use his Presence powers to mess with a girl who humiliated him. He does so and draws the ire of her husband, a bully as a teenager.
          * Dave is confronted by said bully in the bathroom and it gets heated, causing a frenzy that results in Dave murdering said bully.
          * The woman comes in and he ends up killing her too. He finds out they have a young daughter at home.
          * Dave decides he will look after her for the rest of her natural life and she becomes a Touchstone. He develops the conviction, "Never Harm an Innocent Again."

          Some gamers would love this.

          Others would find it boring as hell.
          Or depressing as hell.

          I detest this constant refrain that if your game features any emotion other than grief and regret, with a seasoning of rage - if you don't end every gaming session tempted to slit your own wrists - you want to play "superheroes with fangs".

          I heard a line in a British sitcom once. "When she joined the Samaritans, her first three callers committed suicide. And one of them was a wrong number". Some of the more ill-judged tonal aspects of V5, notably the suggestion that "playing" with evil can be rewarding1, made me wonder if the writers would have considered such a person an ideal Storyteller. But I don't want to play Masochism: The Emotional Self-Flagellation. Luckily, we've seen in series like LA by Night that the new game works very well with complicated, flawed, morally ambiguous, and above all interesting characters who can still be seen as (partially) good guys, if not exactly heroes. The substance of V5 is very strong but I initially found some of the uber-noir aspects of the style off-putting. The Gentleman's introductory videos and my LAbN binge (finishing off the Season 3 epilogues atm) were a big help there.

          1 Except for Nazis

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          • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

            Or depressing as hell.

            I detest this constant refrain that if your game features any emotion other than grief and regret, with a seasoning of rage - if you don't end every gaming session tempted to slit your own wrists - you want to play "superheroes with fangs".
            I get the reasoning that those things could lead to catharsis, yes. But I always found the notion that the game's primary goal should be always that, above all else, awfully pretentious. Hand-in-hand with the notion that the moment you're stepping out of that, of playing to suffer (ok, for your character to suffer), you're "playing vampions", or "D&D with vampires", or some other bs like that. With the implication, of course, that it is also some lesser style of playing, not worthy to the lofty heights of "trv roleplaying".

            Unfortunately, this kind of attitude is not confined to rpg circles, it's present in various kinds of arts as well. I read an expression not lon ago, that pretty much describes it: Misery Porn.

            For me, again, the (personal) horror is an important part of the game, but I equally want to play byzantine schemes and heated fights with the super-powered creatures of the night and yes, I feel no shame that I want to act out some power fantasies, to feel cool in the game and enjoy the darkly-romantic gothic-punk vibe of the background. In my eyes, the wider the berth of themes and tyles the game allows and supports, the better.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

              Regarding the non-personal points, I'm inclined to agree. To be honest, I'm absolutely ambigious about Justin Achilli's work on Vampire.

              - I loved Revised as a whole and I believe, to this day, that the Revised corebook was the best VtM corebook (with V20 being close second, but its place and intention is different). I also loved the visual style of Revised the best and also the dark and gritty style all-in-all, including the writing.

              - However, I absolutely despise the holier-than-thou, badwrongfun-bashing, condescending attitude some of the Revised books had (particularly, the ST's Guide) regarding players and playstyles the writers and the lead dev (Achilli) didn't deem "appropriate".

              - He was the lead dev of Requiem. I'm not a fan of Requiem and that VtM got "killed". Leave it at that.

              - As I mentioned in my previous post, for me, Anarchs Unbound is the best Anarch guidebook so far.


              So, on my front, his work on VtM includes positive and negative stuff in nearly equal measure. However, this isn't really important. I tend to agree that his preferences regarding Vampire might be closer to V5, than to earlier editions, based on the above points, so I'm not waiting for any big changes, which means V5 remains uninteresting to me. It's like with Mr Dawkins, really. He did excellent job on the V20 books, but he himself said on FB a few days ago that he prefers VtR and it shows in his V5 works, IMO. This is not a critique, it just means that they are both professional enough that when they wrote for V20, they kept to the "confines" of the earlier material and done books I love, while when they've done something outside that (VtR and V5 respectively) it didn't meet my tastes. So I'm not holding my breath.

              On the other hand, it's equally funny and sad that Martin, who set the route for V5 the most, isn't on the team for a time, while V5 is supposedly well-received. I'm not a fan of V5 but really, it was mostly his baby and I don't hate him as a person, like some people here. I just don't really like his version of VtM. Incidentally, he said too, that VtR might be the better game, but VtM sold a lot more.

              It's not like Achilli himself made the decision to 'kill off' Masquerade, that would be a whole WW decision, not just him. Same as Dawkins' preference to Requiem; that's certainly Dawkins' preference but he also has to write within the bounds of what WW says to write about.

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              • So, the thinhs Matias said still count? Ex. there will be not disciplines beyond 5?

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                • Originally posted by elmerg View Post


                  It's not like Achilli himself made the decision to 'kill off' Masquerade, that would be a whole WW decision, not just him. Same as Dawkins' preference to Requiem; that's certainly Dawkins' preference but he also has to write within the bounds of what WW says to write about.
                  Just because I enjoy playing Requiem more than Masquerade doesn't mean I don't know how to write the two differently I'm quite aware of the differences between the two and have worked on both. I don't write Masquerade to be Requiem or vice versa.


                  Matthew Dawkins
                  In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                  Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                  • Clearly, the 5th Edition World of Darkness will be destroyed and we'll move to the NEW Chronicles of Darkness.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by blailton View Post
                      So, the thinhs Matias said still count? Ex. there will be not disciplines beyond 5?
                      Given that the system breaks apart with dots above 5, and previously 5+ powers were remade as level 4 or 5 powers unless they go to v6, those arent ever coming back.

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                      • Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post

                        Given that the system breaks apart with dots above 5, and previously 5+ powers were remade as level 4 or 5 powers unless they go to v6, those arent ever coming back.
                        There's ways they could go around it.

                        "Advanced Disicplines" are a cool house rule I've seen used and use myself. You'd make the Elder versions of Dominate, Presence, and so on with a requirement for the first 5 levels.

                        That way the system doesn't break.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • Disciplines will not be going above five dots. There's no need for it. It's just as easy to make amalgams.


                          Matthew Dawkins
                          In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                          Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                          Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                            Disciplines will not be going above five dots. There's no need for it. It's just as easy to make amalgams.
                            Could you explain:
                            why the old system is bad
                            why this is better
                            why you think it's ok to disregard consistency, well established lore, and relatively common metaphysical theories for this change.
                            what people are you using to test these wild ideas on, why havent you picked up on nobody liking amalgams, and....

                            sorry, I got a bit excited there.


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                              Could you explain:
                              why the old system is bad
                              why this is better
                              why you think it's ok to disregard consistency, well established lore, and relatively common metaphysical theories for this change.
                              what people are you using to test these wild ideas on, why havent you picked up on nobody liking amalgams, and....

                              sorry, I got a bit excited there.
                              Seriously?

                              It's over,
                              .

                              Be like Elsa.

                              Let it go.

                              Also, please don't post in this thread again.



                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                                Disciplines will not be going above five dots. There's no need for it. It's just as easy to make amalgams.
                                Thanks for answering. My question is not about this specific subject, but about matters in general, which were informed to us in the interviews, podcasts, articles and your comments. I'm not asking you to answer because I know that these things are delicate and complicated. I was more willing to hear hunches. Anyway, thanks again for responding.

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