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  • #16
    I've played more camarilla games, so it's only natural I've diablerised more with them (Sect wars)

    I just want to remind everyone that Diablerie works best when it's easy. Revised made diablerie an ordeal, something you don't want to do often. Something that you need to recover from. That's far less terrifying than the idea that anyone who tries it will want to do it more. The automatic humanity loss is a dumb idea; It causes players to avoid the practice. And then there's V5's Diablerie mechancs that... encourage high humanity vampires to diablerise while turning away low humanity vampire (and yeah, I guess for V5 you can kinda excuse it with the fact that whilst players might know the mechanics, characters don't, but it's still an abhorent system, especially when it potentially grants huge swaths of discipline XP to a player and fucks party power dynamics up)

    Is this the guy that added in that diablerie revision?

    Also, the more I'm learning about the occult ideologies behind VTM, the more 'WTF' I am to humanity being the one-true-way and diablerie being bad-wrong-never-do-it. Now, sure, maybe I shouldn't be taking advice from Setites and Tremere, but they're almost certainly right about a few things. God (The demiurge) is a bastard and reality is a prison in this setting; It doesn't make sense that 'humanity' and denying your vampiric nature should be the one true way. That's gothic, but it sure as hell ain't punk.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

      bloodhunts or sect wars? (or neither?)
      They were Sabbat, one was due to s frenzy when they attacked elysium, the other, well, it might have been due to extorting the prince for a sanction...


      Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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      • #18
        I'm running a retro '91 Sabbat V20 game right now with a nomadic pack of neonates and 3/4 of the players have succeeded in Diablerie. I'm mostly using the rules from the V20 Black Hand book for Diablerie, with options for permanent discipline transferrrence, but only going to do a chance for possession if the victim were really powerful and strong willed. Under the V20 rules, you needed to accumulate 7 successes on an extended strength roll at difficulty 9, so that's the only reason one of the players has failed their Diablerie. None of them started lower than 11th Gen and most were 13th, so finding someone with lower gen hasn't been much of an issue. They've been skulking around smaller towns and cities that aren't too heavily defended to achieve this. Nobody missed the pair of Autarkis hiding in Barstowe. So by keeping away from the centers of Camarilla power, they've managed to do the deed and get away with it. This is partially because of the group I'm dealing with. I wasn't comfortable making them more than neonates with the knowledge the players actually have about the Sabbat, but I wanted to get them leveled up fast so they can get to doing sieges in a bigger cities. They're a nomadic pack, so they're just a bunch of murder hobos, for me it makes complete sense for them to prey on the edges of kindred society. They also gang up on a lone vampire or two and ambush them or had the help from an older pack and take turns on performing the Amaranth. I'm curious to see how they deal with a single real elder Lasombra Antitribu in the next game or 2, I strongly suspect at least one or 2 are going to die. So yes, I think at least early on Diablerie could be fairly common by a nomadic pack of neonates, although a lot of them die in the process.

        Also packs can't commit Diablerie together. They can help each other take down a more powerful vampire, but only one can actually do the deed, at least by the V20 rules I'm using. I don't recall if that was changed in V5.

        Doing Diablerie in V5, they'd probably also have to make sure members that commit the Amaranth aren't possessed and undergo interrogation. Or here's just a thought, maybe there's a Ritus that could decrease the chances the diablerist gets possessed.

        Asides from Diablerie, I hope Montreal, Mexico City and other major areas in Central America are a trap for the Cam. Once they get settled in, Revanent families come out of the woodwork with help from the local police and army and drag a ton of Cammys that had moved in into the sun during the day or bomb their havens.

        After the surprise return, they'll try to make some incursions into Cam territory with great success initially killing the weakened Cammies. When things look really bad, though, they're pushed back into the central America not by the Cam, but by the Second Inquisition and take massive losses, balancing power structure again. This leads to the SI becoming aware that there are factions among vampires and some awareness as to how they differ.

        I think the younger ones will get disillusioned with the crusade in the middle east. Too many of them dying, the true faith emanating from Mecca and no success actually finding an Antedeluvian will disenchant the youth with the crusade and they'll return. The older ones are also affected by the Beckoning and stay behind to continue the fight in the middle east, which indisposes of the oldest on that side, too.

        I also want paths to return full force. You don't survive as a murder hobo for decades unless you're a psychopath or not trying to hang onto your humanity. They added such a unique flavor to the world. I'm not a fan of touchstones, but institutions or ideals as touchstones, seems like it'd be necessary for a Sabbat vampire since they don't maintain mortal connections.

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        • #19
          one of my grievances in revised was willpower,
          there was not enough of it to deal with diablerie addiction

          from what I heard, they fixed that in V5 by making willpower more available, is it true?

          also wondering if you can spend willpower during diablerie in V5? (the rolls you make for each blood potency or whatnot)

          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

          Also, the more I'm learning about the occult ideologies behind VTM, the more 'WTF' I am to humanity being the one-true-way and diablerie being bad-wrong-never-do-it. Now, sure, maybe I shouldn't be taking advice from Setites and Tremere, but they're almost certainly right about a few things. God (The demiurge) is a bastard and reality is a prison in this setting; It doesn't make sense that 'humanity' and denying your vampiric nature should be the one true way. That's gothic, but it sure as hell ain't punk.
          unfortunately, the demiurge was never made canon, it's always Yahweh, even in other splats,

          though, as far as I know, Phipps is wrong about humanity being the one true way (even in revised)
          even if it's the only way to gain Yahweh's favor, it didn't mean much since humanitas was just impossible to maintain at high levels,
          only vampires with true faith or extremely naïve ones could,

          paths of enlightenement were desperate, but they offered more,
          they offered a reconciliation with your nature (instead of a constant conflict with it),
          and it also offered you to put your faith in other, more compelling, deities (Caine, Lilith, Demons, Demiurge, even Gaia and the Triat for some...)


          -

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
            one of my grievances in revised was willpower,
            there was not enough of it to deal with diablerie addiction

            from what I heard, they fixed that in V5 by making willpower more available, is it true?

            also wondering if you can spend willpower during diablerie in V5? (the rolls you make for each blood potency or whatnot)



            unfortunately, the demiurge was never made canon, it's always Yahweh, even in other splats,

            though, as far as I know, Phipps is wrong about humanity being the one true way (even in revised)
            even if it's the only way to gain Yahweh's favor, it didn't mean much since humanitas was just impossible to maintain at high levels,
            only vampires with true faith or extremely naïve ones could,

            paths of enlightenement were desperate, but they offered more,
            they offered a reconciliation with your nature (instead of a constant conflict with it),
            and it also offered you to put your faith in other, more compelling, deities (Caine, Lilith, Demons, Demiurge, even Gaia and the Triat for some...)
            Revised made Golconda canon with SINS OF THE BLOOD.

            It provided the rules and how it wa sachieved.

            Also, it can only be done with Humanity.

            https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sins_of_the_Blood

            Justin Achilli was the developer.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              Also, the more I'm learning about the occult ideologies behind VTM, the more 'WTF' I am to humanity being the one-true-way and diablerie being bad-wrong-never-do-it. Now, sure, maybe I shouldn't be taking advice from Setites and Tremere, but they're almost certainly right about a few things. God (The demiurge) is a bastard and reality is a prison in this setting; It doesn't make sense that 'humanity' and denying your vampiric nature should be the one true way. That's gothic, but it sure as hell ain't punk.
              The Church of Set is always accepting new converts…just sayin'…

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                Revised made Golconda canon with SINS OF THE BLOOD.

                It provided the rules and how it wa sachieved.

                Also, it can only be done with Humanity.

                https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sins_of_the_Blood

                Justin Achilli was the developer.
                I know, but humanity was still a hard road, and few achieved salvation,

                chaining the beast was rather specific about it,
                and high humanity vampires were negatively perceived in both sects

                paths led nowhere, but they were still the logical choice


                -

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  I've played more camarilla games, so it's only natural I've diablerised more with them (Sect wars)

                  I just want to remind everyone that Diablerie works best when it's easy. Revised made diablerie an ordeal, something you don't want to do often. Something that you need to recover from. That's far less terrifying than the idea that anyone who tries it will want to do it more. The automatic humanity loss is a dumb idea; It causes players to avoid the practice. And then there's V5's Diablerie mechancs that... encourage high humanity vampires to diablerise while turning away low humanity vampire (and yeah, I guess for V5 you can kinda excuse it with the fact that whilst players might know the mechanics, characters don't, but it's still an abhorent system, especially when it potentially grants huge swaths of discipline XP to a player and fucks party power dynamics up)
                  I feel like your mechanics for a game which has meth and heroin in it would be "These should just give people superpowers because if not players won't use them". How do you balance that it is SUPPOSED To be addictive but also REALLY bad for you?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                    The Church of Set is always accepting new converts…just sayin'…
                    My player character is an Anarch following the Church of Caine. He hates the Setites because they're only right about 90% of reality! The remaining 10% is worth killing over.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      That's a shitty analogy.

                      Diablerie isn't supposed to be bad for you? Socially, yeah, they'll kill you for it, but physically? It brings you closer to "Caine", it literally makes your blood and soul stronger. You are returning to the strength of the primordial vampire, you are transending the limitations of earthly shackles, and you're killing an elder who probably deserved it. With all that in mind, maybe it's worth a gamble with humanity? But if you just took a huge hit everytime you did it, it would suck and you wouldn't do it again.

                      RE: Heroin and other addictive substances
                      You'd get willpower for doing it and roll willpower to resist the temptation of doing it more. Perhaps a stamina/Medicine roll would be there to keep you from killing yourself. The first part probably could help provide mechanics for diablerie addiction, but people don't get addicted after only one shot of heroin


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        That's a shitty analogy.

                        Diablerie isn't supposed to be bad for you? Socially, yeah, they'll kill you for it, but physically? It brings you closer to "Caine", it literally makes your blood and soul stronger. You are returning to the strength of the primordial vampire, you are transending the limitations of earthly shackles, and you're killing an elder who probably deserved it. With all that in mind, maybe it's worth a gamble with humanity? But if you just took a huge hit everytime you did it, it would suck and you wouldn't do it again.
                        Yes it is. Its not supposed to be good for you. Like Sith Philosophy the "diablere is awesome" is meant to be hollow. Its meant to be a lie. Its meant to justify a quick and dangerous path to power. The reason why every person on Golconda successfully leaves vampire society is because its a game you cannot win. Every move is just a different method of losing. Diablere's "Loss" condition is becoming someone's new body of a wight.

                        Actually lets consider instead how many vampires become wights even without Diablere. How many vampires are expected to survive even a human life time much less bask in "Immortality"?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post

                          Yes it is. Its not supposed to be good for you. Like Sith Philosophy the "diablere is awesome" is meant to be hollow. Its meant to be a lie. Its meant to justify a quick and dangerous path to power. The reason why every person on Golconda successfully leaves vampire society is because its a game you cannot win. Every move is just a different method of losing. Diablere's "Loss" condition is becoming someone's new body of a wight.

                          Actually lets consider instead how many vampires become wights even without Diablere. How many vampires are expected to survive even a human life time much less bask in "Immortality"?
                          I'd think wight's wouldn't be too common. Losing those last few dots of humanity isn't that easy and staying alive when you're so obviously monstrous to even other kindred is going to be difficult, at least outside of the Sabbat, which is what paths were for. They make a fun little side quest when you just need to throw the party a quick track and kill/capture quest, though. Staying alive as a wight can't be that easy, either. Someone breaches their haven during the day, or even worse the SWAT team, combined with both the Camarilla and Sabbat wanting them dead or to use them doesn't make for a long life.

                          My understanding was vampires actually had a pretty high mortality rate and most didn't make it past their first 10 years. A lot of them probably just screw up hunting at some point and get outnumbered and offed or piss off their sire or the other wrong person and they're written off as a mistake and burnt. Plus there's probably a sizeable chunk of the ones that died who just decide from the get go, they can't deal with the whole drinking blood to survive thing and just commit suicide in their first nights. It's a little like human mortality rates in the middle ages. Get through your childhood and you can live to a decent age

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                          • #28
                            jamiemalk I agree with your analysis.


                            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                            • #29
                              The Demiurge (the idea of a blatantly evil God) is from Kult, not Vampire.


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lian View Post

                                Yes it is. Its not supposed to be good for you. Like Sith Philosophy the "diablere is awesome" is meant to be hollow. Its meant to be a lie. Its meant to justify a quick and dangerous path to power. The reason why every person on Golconda successfully leaves vampire society is because its a game you cannot win. Every move is just a different method of losing. Diablere's "Loss" condition is becoming someone's new body of a wight.

                                Actually lets consider instead how many vampires become wights even without Diablere. How many vampires are expected to survive even a human life time much less bask in "Immortality"?
                                Like jedi Philosophy the "diablere is awful" is meant to be hollow. Its meant to be a lie. Its meant to justify a static status quo where everyone knows their place; Some people are just better than others by matter of birth, and you should just lie down like a dog and accept that. Diablerie's loss condition is that you become the tasty next meal.

                                Actually let's consider how many vampires are killed off by their despotic elders for imagined slights even without diablerie? How many vampires are expected to survive a human life time much less bask in "Immortality"



                                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                                Comment

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