Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[V5] The official Sabbat speculation thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • CTPhipps
    started a topic [V5] The official Sabbat speculation thread

    [V5] The official Sabbat speculation thread

    This is the official forum thread for discussing the Sabbat in V5. With Justin Achilli having taken over as Creator Director and his handling of them in Revised, it's now entirely possible we may be seeing our old friends in the Sword of Caine return to a more prominent role in the setting.

    This is about speculating about their handling, their roles, and how to incorporate them when they come back from the Middle East or reveal they never entirely went in the first place.

    Also, how they will be handled with Paths and morality.

  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    What, I thought Caine was Vampire G-D? And didn’t the Technocracy take out that andtivillan?

    And of course Methuselah could be taken out with like all the United States military, why else would they hide instead of ruling the world?
    They die under enough artillery, or enough napalm but mostly they hide from each other, and other supernatural big beasts, whether Werewolf septs or mage traditions, or to an extent Fae courts, Methuselah can die, but it used to take a huge investment and risk, (hell Baba Haha obliterated every Vampire and most other supernaturals in the entire of Russia when she rose in the early 90s, Ur-Shulgi broke the Tremere curse on the Banu Haqim and is even described as not even seeming to move when killing anything short of another Methuselah, Mi-Ka-Il was the Arch Angel of Constantinople, and even fallen walked softly around him, their are more, but the true ancients can literally control nation's and shape history, all they really fear is each other, or of they understand them, nuclear weapons)

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    The fluff doesn't match the rules.
    I think there will always be a level cap, for lack of a better term, in all RPGs. Where the PCs, and character with-in reach of the PCs, exist in one area. And "god-tier" NPCs exist at a different level, an area where game mechanics break down or at least become slow and difficult. In most editions of D&D this issue appears around 10th to 12th level, for example. In VtM this appears for thing more powerful than 8th generation.

    All that to say, when dealing with vampires from the Bronze Age, the fluff won't match the rules because it probably can't match the existing rules.

    We will have to wait for the Players Guide, and see if it provides some guidance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gogobaccala
    replied
    I have been running Sabbat with the Vaulderie adding a Touchstone/Conviction of

    The Pack / Anything for the Pack

    Also added Convictions that let you diablerize in certain circumstances that ignore the humanity hit.

    The Sabbat are interesting, can't wait for Justin to bring them back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konradleijon
    replied
    What, I thought Caine was Vampire G-D? And didn’t the Technocracy take out that andtivillan?

    And of course Methuselah could be taken out with like all the United States military, why else would they hide instead of ruling the world?

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Methuselah are so rare and usually well hidden I don't know why you'd use them as an example of VtM's young VS old theme being too difficult. An Elder to a Neonate is as a Methuselah to an Elder. And a bunch of mortals could still take out a methuselah if they had the right planning and equipment and... it was just really hard. But by the time Meths started taking an active roll in your chronicle your players should be Ancillae.

    A group of mortals could kill a meth with the right planning and equipment: If you can't take punch above your weight you just need to get gud. Taking on elders was never meant to be easy, that's why they call it the 'Jyhad' and not 'tax evasion' or something. The game appearing difficult and seeing society as a collection of insurmountable challenges is what drives the narrative. You should fear everyone below and above you. V5? I could take out Caine with a Car bombing; the only thing to fear is that someone will will you dead before you can will them dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I love the Sabbat just fine but the Sabbat vs. Camarilla is something that never should have been the primary focus, IMHO. No shade on people who enjoy but it's the Orks vs. Imperium of the setting.
    It definitely hijacked the setting. The conflict between the sects are fine as one element of the setting. But it definitely took things over like bacteria in a urinal.

    I blame it on the tendency of all RPGs to go to combat as its prime narrative means of conflict resolution. Lots of players want combat.

    But for a game originally premised on being a story of personal horror, it's unfortunate.

    Leave a comment:


  • PJ123
    replied
    Perhaps I used the wrong word with overarching. My meaning was despite all the other Themes to be played with, you still had a young vs old going on. As for the previous editions supporting the young being able to topple Elders, I respectfully disagree. A Fourth or Fifth Generation Methuselah, not in Torpor and up to their full power (three different adventures featuring Mictlantecuhtle, Tiamat, Shaitan, had them in Torpor or not up to full strength) has insane powers at their disposal that make events like the Anarch Revolt not make sense. Sure, some Elders can be toppled, but all it takes is someone with Disciplines that top at 8-9 to clean house (Ur Shulgi comes to mind).

    Yes, the system had rules for playing Elders, but unless you came up with your own house rules, they were always weaker than any statted NPC. The only way in the previous editions you could eventually get to comparable power level (if playing with standard Neonate rules) was by committing Amaranth. So if you consider Diablerie the tool that allowed you to eventually possess anything an NPC had, I agree.

    what I like about V5 mechanics is that it is hard, but no longer impossible, to take out ancient vampires. There was a reason the two Diablerie adventures had both Methuselahs in Torpor. You can't take beings of that power level that are conscious and at full power. Now Neonates have access (theoretically) to the same powers ancients have. No longer do you need to commit enough Diablerie to be able to Dominate multiple people, or scan an entire city with Auspex.

    I think the Diablerie mechanics in V5 could use work, but I like the play of Blood Potency and Generation, and the Disciplines. However, at the end of the day, all of this is nothing but my opinions. Some folks are going to like V5, others not. I am going to hold out to see what becomes of my much loved Sabbat and their Black Hand.

    Anyone ever read or run the old Blood Bond adventure? Very interesting and different take on the Sabbat, before they got a Players' Guide.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    The best conflict in VTM is Camarilla Vs Camarilla. Second is Sabbat Vs Sabbat, and third is Anarchs Vs Anarchs. The Sabbat is too complicated, The Anarchs are too simple, but the Camarilla is just right.

    That said, yeah, Sabbat Vs Camarilla, just like orks Vs the imperium, is overplayed because it's good. Now If only that was an inexpensive hobby and there were cheap imperial guard armies and I lived anywhere near where such games are played.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

    That's actually the direct opposite. As the editions went on beyond 1E, the theme became dynamic and wasn't just an "young vs old" smackdown (which was allocated into the bored Camarilla vs Anarch "conflict" that goes nowhere). The true fun was when things began ramping up in power and there were more intrigues with each new character and fresh mechanic introduced. The most iconic theme about VTM if anything was the duality found in the Camarilla vs Sabbat and their ideologies in how Kindred undeath should be "lived"- one wants to shred the excuse of humanity in light of their reality, while one wants to maintain a beneficial facade to keeps things in equilibrium despite their newfound advantages.. and disadvantages to being a Kindred.
    I love the Sabbat just fine but the Sabbat vs. Camarilla is something that never should have been the primary focus, IMHO. No shade on people who enjoy but it's the Orks vs. Imperium of the setting.

    And again VTM is more than just (pre-V5) "young vs old," it was about untangling century long intrigues, rising through the ranks of your respective Sect through prestation or ignoring all that to go Independent, establishing your own demense, inter-clan politics, etc. It'd be wrong to say that young vs old ISN'T a theme, but its just one of the many not the singular "mean."
    Yeah, that's the Transylvania Chronicles and Giovanni Chronicles but I feel like that implied that the system was anything other than rigged. Age shouldn't be a reward, it should be a sign you murdered and betrayed your friends to become the kind of monster who sits on a kingdom of lies.

    Mind you, my TC character joined the Sabbat because Elders are pure evil--and he found himself becoming one anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shakanaka
    replied
    Originally posted by PJ123
    Ever since 1E, the overarching theme has been the young against the old.
    That's actually the direct opposite. As the editions went on beyond 1E, the theme became dynamic and wasn't just an "young vs old" smackdown (which was allocated into the bored Camarilla vs Anarch "conflict" that goes nowhere). The true fun was when things began ramping up in power and there were more intrigues with each new character and fresh mechanic introduced. The most iconic theme about VTM if anything was the duality found in the Camarilla vs Sabbat and their ideologies in how Kindred undeath should be "lived"- one wants to shred the excuse of humanity in light of their reality, while one wants to maintain a beneficial facade to keeps things in equilibrium despite their newfound advantages.. and disadvantages to being a Kindred.

    Originally posted by PJ123
    But realistically, the mechanics never supported the young being able to take out the old until V5.
    LOL.. What in the WORLD are you talking about? Literally since 2nd edition up to Revised then in V20 we were given an ARMADA of tools to keep up to the level of Elders to fight and keep up against them. How with a straight face can you say there WERE no mechanics to support the young against the "old" pre-V5? That's part of the reason why so many like pre-V5 to begin with- everything that an NPC could do, any PC can eventually get to and vice versa for when another PC theoretically will go up against you. In V5 they just gutted this with capping disciplines, making vampires weak, merging disciplines ICly with no explanation, giving Thinbloods nonsensical buffs when their only merely to be plot devices, enacting the Beckoning for a delightfully BS reason for all Elders to go away so your forced to be young etc. The entirety of V5 is arbitrarily condensing possibility.

    And again VTM is more than just (pre-V5) "young vs old," it was about untangling century long intrigues, rising through the ranks of your respective Sect through prestation or ignoring all that to go Independent, establishing your own demense, inter-clan politics, etc. It'd be wrong to say that young vs old ISN'T a theme, but its just one of the many not the singular "mean."
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 08-19-2020, 11:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Which is a huge problem, you can't tell stories with a system that the rules don't support, not without causing immersion breaking amounts of 'hang on a minute' moments.
    Yes.

    ...

    No there's no argument here. I've stated it's my biggest problem with V5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Except every description is like, "20 Sabbat Warriors attacked a vampire and one lived....who is now probably possessed."

    The fluff doesn't match the rules.
    Which is a huge problem, you can't tell stories with a system that the rules don't support, not without causing immersion breaking amounts of 'hang on a minute' moments.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Since the rules don't support 'gods' he lead them to an all you can slurp happy hour
    Except every description is like, "20 Sabbat Warriors attacked a vampire and one lived....who is now probably possessed."

    The fluff doesn't match the rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The real question is whether he actually planned to find any Antediluvians on his snipe hunt or didn't and ended up leading the Sabbat to the lair of gods.
    Since the rules don't support 'gods' he lead them to an all you can slurp happy hour

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X