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How do you express Elder Traits/Disciplines in V5?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by blailton View Post
    From what you're describing to me, I either make this power disapear or handwave it as plot device. As an ST I would care less but as a player neither is satisfactory. The Elder can do it, because it's a plot device, but I can't and never will, no matter how much XP I have? Sir, this sucks. It seems that only ST can have fun in V5.
    I mean…as I said before, how often have you actually used level-nine disciplines as a player? And the Gehenna book literally replaced all level-ten disciplines with "Plot Device", those exact words.

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    • #17
      But you see, you only get one point of xp each session, so an elder having 5 in a discipline is really impressive now ⸮


      Actually, I should speak as a player, that this is something I have done several times already and it's quite fun.
      Were your players all Gangrel or something?

      It's a change that effects some clans a lot more than others. I might not be that affected as a gangrel, but I sure as hell would be upset as a Tremere, Malkavian or Lasombra. Animalism, Presence , Fortitude and Protean are pretty close to what they were and you could perhaps have fun with some new features replacing stuff you didn't use, and I suppose you could look at Celerity's changes and think 'that's fair', But Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence plus the rarer disciplines of Oblivion and Sorcery change the characters to utterly different entities; The things I did with 3 in Auspex, Dominate and Obfuscate (Impersonate a person, Use his persona to get close to his associates in order to dominate them for information and cause chaos, and use a load of auspex tricks on the way to help this go smoothly) I cannot do in V5. I'd also have to completely rethink my strategy with using potence because It isn't universal strength now and all the extra damage in the world won't help me if I can't get a hit in (A 2 strength, 2 brawl, 4 potence character went from amazing to useless), and I don't think I need to explain the deal with sorcery and oblivion.


      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        But you see, you only get one point of xp each session, so an elder having 5 in a discipline is really impressive now ⸮
        Well in V5 when you commit diablerie you gain 5xp you can spend on blood potency OR disciplines known to the victim for each success on the contested roll to subsume the diablerized vampire's heartblood. If you roll 5 successes you gain 25XP, which is a lot considering the 1 XP per session rule...

        Considering how you keep insisting on diablerie as means of increasing the power of PCs (what diablerie means doesn't seem to bother you much onestly... it's power after all!) seems to me you should be happy for V5 diablerie rules. Potentially they make diablerie much miore effective than it ever was making diablerist stronger.

        P.S.

        In all seriousness I think we can all agree that as the game progresses and PCs get more stuff to spend XP on increasing XP gain becomes a no brainer and by the way it's something I'm pretty sure already happens in famous chronicles like LA by night where players got several disciplines powers that would have been impossible to get if the 1XP per session rule were implemented.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Draconis View Post

          I mean…as I said before, how often have you actually used level-nine disciplines as a player? And the Gehenna book literally replaced all level-ten disciplines with "Plot Device", those exact words.
          Create gorg, vozdh, turn dragon, became Kupala are not level 10 or 9 or 8 or 7 power.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Haquim View Post

            Well in V5 when you commit diablerie you gain 5xp you can spend on blood potency OR disciplines known to the victim for each success on the contested roll to subsume the diablerized vampire's heartblood. If you roll 5 successes you gain 25XP, which is a lot considering the 1 XP per session rule...

            Considering how you keep insisting on diablerie as means of increasing the power of PCs (what diablerie means doesn't seem to bother you much onestly... it's power after all!) seems to me you should be happy for V5 diablerie rules. Potentially they make diablerie much miore effective than it ever was making diablerist stronger.

            P.S.

            In all seriousness I think we can all agree that as the game progresses and PCs get more stuff to spend XP on increasing XP gain becomes a no brainer and by the way it's something I'm pretty sure already happens in famous chronicles like LA by night where players got several disciplines powers that would have been impossible to get if the 1XP per session rule were implemented.
            Personally I call that as a Homebrew. Mason used his ST powers to implement golden rules into his game. I will not adopt his gold rules, however. And as a player I don't have evidence in the corebook to proof to the ST he/she should give me X points of xp instead of Y.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Haquim View Post
              Stuff
              You know I've also posted that I also really don't like giving buckets of XP to Diablerists? For me, Diablerie should be little lost, little gained.
              I mean, I've played games where I've been given lots of disciplines from diablerie, and that's all very exciting when it goes to your head, But when your Physical-Tertiary mastermind can now out-brute the other players' brutes thanks to a windfall, the party dynamic suffers a bit. "UNLIMITED POOOWWWWER" is best when it's time limited. The V5 system for diablerie Is also hilariously the worst of a lot of worlds in that you gain far too much power if you eat with high humanity but don't make any gains if you devour someone while you have low humanity; So you should fear the saints, not the sinners.


              Now, for XP
              I'm genuinely considering that the 1xp per session thing works under the assumption that you are supposed to farm resonances to make up for the lackluster amount of XP. The primary goal of the Coterie (other than to survive) is to find (or create) individuals with strong resonances, as those people can grant XP for specific disciplines. You add them to your herd, feed off them with some regularity, and find more people so you can do this for a good amount. Sustainably, the right person could give you 1xp per six to eight weeks (assuming you're not encouraging them to really replenish those RBCs, and this is also assuming that the victim's resonance doesn't change) So if you found enough of these people and kept tabs on them and other vampires don't poach from you, you could get some pretty good results during downtime (The biggest problem, however, is that you're part of a coterie, so 'dibs' doesn't really work all that well)

              Assuming 6 week recovery times and an in-clan discipline (V5 is 5x level wanted, right?) your first dot of a discipline is 30 weeks (or 42 for an OOC) of feeding from one person every six weeks. If you find a second person with the same resonance, that's 15, and then it's 7. It's far more likely you'll find people of different resonances, but even then you're not making small gains assuming the storyteller gives you ample downtime. (We're also assuming you're spending your 1xp per session on Attributes and abilities, for some reason...)

              But then again I don't know how common resonances are supposed to be, if red blood cells are really relevant, if your storyteller will keep blood benefits consistent...

              But, assuming all things are correct, and you have target one person with a resonance granting xp for your in clan discipline once every six weeks, it should take you 8.6 Years for a level 5 discipline. (Wow that's shockingly short, though this is an optimistic projection)


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by blailton View Post
                Create gorg, vozdh, turn dragon, became Kupala are not level 10 or 9 or 8 or 7 power.
                Right; I don't relegate "create vozhd" to Plot Device tier, I would call that a Project requiring a bunch of Vicissitude (but not anything above level 5). I don't remember the "become Kupala" power but I would assume that is Plot Device tier because Kupala is, iirc, a tremendously powerful Earthbound.

                Most Plot Device tier things are the ones player characters will never get or use, like the level-nine Obeah that raises someone from the dead but permanently lowers your Path rating (which cannot then be raised by any means). That seems clearly designed as a plot device for NPC Salubri, not for player use.

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                • #23
                  I guess create Vozhd could be an amalgam with Vicissitude (or Protean if they decide to go that route with it) and Animalism. Another possibility is a Koldunic ritual that needs at least a few dots in Vicissitude/Protean with the right powers picked in the discipline that make sense to do that. That would depend on how they handle Koldunism, like is it just a different set of powers in Blood Sorcery or it's own thing.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                    I mean…as I said before, how often have you actually used level-nine disciplines as a player? And the Gehenna book literally replaced all level-ten disciplines with "Plot Device", those exact words.
                    The thing with level 9 powers is that the ST can use it and as a player you know what is he really using (not in character obviously) and that usually create more awe in the PCs than an invented plot device could.

                    - Saga
                    Last edited by Saga; 07-12-2020, 01:13 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by blailton View Post

                      Create gorg, vozdh, turn dragon, became Kupala are not level 10 or 9 or 8 or 7 power.
                      Actually to turn into dragon form it was a Vicissitude 9 in VtDA20 and Vicissitude 9 (+Koldunic 9) in the original VtDA (Libellus Sanguinis I)

                      Another one was mythic form with Protean 8 (Clanbook Gangrel revised)

                      - Saga

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Saga View Post

                        Actually to turn into dragon form it was a Vicissitude 9 in VtDA20 and Vicissitude 9 (+Koldunic 9) in the original VtDA (Libellus Sanguinis I)

                        Another one was mythic form with Protean 8 (Clanbook Gangrel revised)

                        - Saga
                        Yes I was reffering to the Protean one. Thanks.

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                        • #27
                          I can see all the "turn into a giant legendary beast" powers being amalgams of Protean 4 and Animalism 4 or 5. Which are probably well within the reach of Gangrel and Tzimisce elders if they want to develop their powers in that direction, and would still involve about as many discipline dots as before, just spread across multiple disciplines.

                          I think the big wide scale feats of sorcery like laying (and breaking) curses on an entire bloodline or clan are probably best done as projects. Back in the days of Revised I didn't think a discrete high-level ritual or power that would only ever have a single appropriate use was the best way to emulate things that were described in fluff as years or centuries of experimentation and cooperation among multiple sorcerers. Likewise for creating vozhd, gargoyles, setting up magically protected castles in the Carpathians, etc.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                            I can see all the "turn into a giant legendary beast" powers being amalgams of Protean 4 and Animalism 4 or 5.
                            .
                            And Apep for Setites?

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                            • #29
                              Sure. Perhaps not as natural a fit for the Ministry as the two clans above, but if one's determined to go the Thulsa Doom route they'd be able to.

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                              • #30
                                I'm thinking 5e wanted to tone down the power levels, which makes sense given how cray cray many elders were in previous editions. Though note that generation and blood potency still matters a great deal in this edition, and elders with 6+ BP and a bunch of rank 5 disciples could still mangle a coterie of neonates. Though with less of an obvious power difference, it finally highlights something that really should have been apparent in earlier editions: elders survive by being smart, not strong. Lots of advance planning, safeguards, and blood bound bodyguards. A 200 scheming Ventrue is going to be much more of a threat than a rampaging idiot twice his age.

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