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How do you express Elder Traits/Disciplines in V5?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
    So. Plot devices, which are absolutely irrelevant to the game mechanics and can be represented as just that. But. Mithras can still command his entire blood line with a thought. For example: Ancestral Dominion is a Dominate 4, Blood Sorcery 3 amalgam that let's you dominate a descendant at any distance. It does admittedly not work if the vampire's defense pool goes above 10 but, Mithras might have a more powerful version of something like that. (That power is literally from the cult of Mithras) Mithras also at full strength would have BP 9 or 10. This means that even if he had a stamina of 1, he'd still have a health pool of 9. He could activate toughness for almost free, he can sling around Defy bane again, for almost free as well as Flesh of Marble. If he activated all of those powers, he'd have spent on average a whole 1 hunger.

    The Montano thing would be fitting for a ceremony given that Shadow Step is literally already a power, and so a Ceremony that extends it from "Line of Sight" to "Anywhere in the world" would fit within the power level and scope of the game.

    Ur-Shulgi and Al-Ashrad were... plot devices that weren't really represented in game anyways. In game terms, they'd have a minimum BP of 5 but more than likely have much more. Still, that BP of 5 means they get a minimum of 3 dice on every discipline, and can add three more at a whim. If they were max power, that goes up to 5 for the minimum and 5 for a surge. That means that they could have a pool of 20 with the barest of effort. Which in this system is pretty highly overkill

    Again, a plot point for the dragon thing. But something that would be doable as a max level power and or loresheet.

    Yes, a neonate can do these things. IF they know that it exists, IF they cultivate their blood that way, and IF they were to grow in that way.

    At the least, Thaumaturgy has always been represented as being able to do everything that everyone else can do. It's literally noted as being a highly flexible paradigm.
    If the rules don't support an action it cannot be done, plus those Meths you describe are vastly nerfed even at 20dice, it doesn't matter that they can Slaughter a coeterie, it matters if they have the power to break nations.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Gogobaccala View Post
      Running V5 for a 1987 game:

      V5 is a great little system, but essentially it's advertising for the Paradox video games. So everything is video gamey. There's a reason the company that made the first three books doesn't exist anymore. It's a disappointment, but a fixable one. However, I started running it and I don't want to go through the pain in the butt of going back to V20. It takes some doing, and maybe they'll expand the line to the point I don't have to write my own rules, but that Summer 2019 release date on the Player's Guide is not encouraging.

      I run games before 1999 so I don't have to even think about Thinblood Alchemy (just play a ghoul) and the SI. (we already have the Technocracy) 90% of my problems with V5 can be excised with a time jump.

      That also means that the Beckoning hasn't happened yet, so what do we do for the elders?

      - Vampires can learn up to their blood potency in additional Discipline powers at the normal cost after they have 5 dots in a discipline. So a BP 3 Torreador has five dots in Presence and knows Awe, Lingering Kiss, Summoning, and Star Magnetism. That Torrie could learn the remaining powers of Presence up to level 3: Daunt for 5xp, Dread Gaze for 15xp

      -Anyone of Blood Potency 3 or higher can make their own Discipline powers. This, combined with the above, gives a lot of growth room for Blood Sorcery.

      -Whenever someone has a dice pool over ten and uses it, it weakens the local Gauntlet/Consensus/Reality. Any funny rules interactions are caused by this.

      OR

      -Just play V20.

      I would say just play V20.

      V5 is more than just a new rule system, it's a re-invention of Vampire the Masquerade with a focus on progressing the timeline and while certainly its based and includes all of the classic history of Vampire The Masquerade, it does it with a casual hand wave. Which simply means that, the relevance of kindred history in a modern day V5 chronicle is really not important or that relevant to the game.

      If your goal is to run a traditional 99 Masquerade Chronicle with Elders etc... in the V20 timeline, it will be easier I think to run V20 game and pull your favorite mechanical systems from V5 to V20, then it is going to be to do it the other way around.

      I think V5 is a great system, if you use it in the way its designed to be used, which is to run a modern day chronicle in an era of the second inquisition, the Beckoning etc. You sort of have to buy into the history/setting being presented for the rules to be aligned, else you run into these difficult to explain concepts. Now of course in the hands of a highly motivated GM comfertable with creating/managing rules, its certainly doable, but again, I'm not sure its worth the effort. V20 is a great system for a great game and like V5, V20 has a very specific world/setting assumption built into it, if you are going to run a chronicle that focuses on that setting, you may as well run V20 if you ask me. No reason to overcomplicate things, the important thing is that you create a great game/story for your players, which system you use is ... well it shouldn't be the main thing.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by xguild View Post


        I would say just play V20.

        V5 is more than just a new rule system, it's a re-invention of Vampire the Masquerade with a focus on progressing the timeline and while certainly its based and includes all of the classic history of Vampire The Masquerade, it does it with a casual hand wave. Which simply means that, the relevance of kindred history in a modern day V5 chronicle is really not important or that relevant to the game.

        If your goal is to run a traditional 99 Masquerade Chronicle with Elders etc... in the V20 timeline, it will be easier I think to run V20 game and pull your favorite mechanical systems from V5 to V20, then it is going to be to do it the other way around.

        I think V5 is a great system, if you use it in the way its designed to be used, which is to run a modern day chronicle in an era of the second inquisition, the Beckoning etc. You sort of have to buy into the history/setting being presented for the rules to be aligned, else you run into these difficult to explain concepts. Now of course in the hands of a highly motivated GM comfertable with creating/managing rules, its certainly doable, but again, I'm not sure its worth the effort. V20 is a great system for a great game and like V5, V20 has a very specific world/setting assumption built into it, if you are going to run a chronicle that focuses on that setting, you may as well run V20 if you ask me. No reason to overcomplicate things, the important thing is that you create a great game/story for your players, which system you use is ... well it shouldn't be the main thing.
        If I hadn't started with V5 2 years ago assuming that I'd at least have 13 clans and an actual interesting metaplot by now, I would still be using V20. I was a playtester for V5, I ran it at Gen Con as part of the release. I believed in V5 and I wanted to run it. I defended V5 endlessly online and in real life. After 2 years of wondering where the rest of it is, I'm jaded because I had to finish it myself.

        Now I'm running V5 out of spite, with home brew Paths of Enlightenment, Koldunism, and a full library of PC made Thaumaturgy. The Second Inquisition is absolutely a Technocracy plot to remove the Reality Deviant Kindred as competing manipulators of humanity.

        A few of my players tried joining other V5 games and immediately quit because the world was so boring and limited. That's a feature, not a bug: I run V5 the way I do to make every other V5 game feel lacking. I took the video game advertisement that they charged me money for and made it good.

        So yes, if you're sane and not personally invested in this like I am, just play V20.
        Last edited by Gogobaccala; 08-25-2020, 04:41 PM.

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        • #64
          V20 elder disciplines do need a lot of work.

          -I don't think Celerity/Fortitude/Potence should have any suggested 6+ powers (some of them don't even particularly fit with how the discipline metaphysically works) I just think you should get a cool list of what kind of feats you can do with higher and higher physical disciplines; Being able to make handholds out of walls shouldn't be it's own power, it should just be something you do at potence 6.

          Most Discipline descriptions for levels 8/9 should be vague anecdotes and theories rather than fully stated items, except for when you can make a story out of it (a whole city going mad). But levels 6 and 7 should remain because your city's elders are likely to have them and they're great goals to have players work towards.


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Gogobaccala View Post

            If I hadn't started with V5 2 years ago assuming that I'd at least have 13 clans and an actual interesting metaplot by now, I would still be using V20. I was a playtester for V5, I ran it at Gen Con as part of the release. I believed in V5 and I wanted to run it. I defended V5 endlessly online and in real life. After 2 years of wondering where the rest of it is, I'm jaded because I had to finish it myself.

            Now I'm running V5 out of spite, with home brew Paths of Enlightenment, Koldunism, and a full library of PC made Thaumaturgy. The Second Inquisition is absolutely a Technocracy plot to remove the Reality Deviant Kindred as competing manipulators of humanity.

            A few of my players tried joining other V5 games and immediately quit because the world was so boring and limited. That's a feature, not a bug: I run V5 the way I do to make every other V5 game feel lacking. I took the video game advertisement that they charged me money for and made it good.

            So yes, if you're sane and not personally invested in this like I am, just play V20.
            V5 is a remake of the original Vampire the Masquerade, a game created and updated between 91 and 11, which is 20 years of development. V5 has been out officially for 2 years as of August. Its safe to say that its going to take some time for V5 to catch up to its predecessor and realistically it probably never will given that the era of creating mass splat books has come and gone a long time ago.

            I would not have expected V5 to be pumping out books any faster then it is now. I think you can safely assume you will never see clan books and you might get 1-3 books a year if we are lucky.

            The business has changed, the market has changed, the people playing games have changed. There is no developer on earth and no design of Vampire The Masquerade that could be created that would satisfy the nostalgia this community craves.

            The problem is not that the game has changed, or that books aren't being being pumped out fast enough or that there is no interesting meta plot or that the rules are bad or any of that. The problem is that its not 20 years ago and we, the fans of the original are not our 20 years ago selves.

            I have a group of friends that I tried running a V20 game for, after we had run a V5 campaign, just to see how they liked the difference. I believe the best quote I got from them was that "they like the original Vampire The Masquerade better", but they where referring to V5. Different game, for a different time for a different gaming culture. What can you do, it is what it is.

            Personally I'm sold on V5. I'm on my second chronicle now after a brief pause with the same group and its an absolute smash hit and frankly, my players who never played the original Vampire have no idea what is and isn't missing. They know V5, to them, that's the game, they don't really know the rich culture and history of White Wolf Games, their first introduction into this world is through V5.
            Last edited by xguild; 08-25-2020, 07:28 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by xguild View Post

              V5 is a remake of the original Vampire the Masquerade, a game created and updated between 91 and 11, which is 20 years of development. V5 has been out officially for 2 years as of August. Its safe to say that its going to take some time for V5 to catch up to its predecessor and realistically it probably never will given that the era of creating mass splat books has come and gone a long time ago.

              I would not have expected V5 to be pumping out books any faster then it is now. I think you can safely assume you will never see clan books and you might get 1-3 books a year if we are lucky.

              The business has changed, the market has changed, the people playing games have changed. There is no developer on earth and no design of Vampire The Masquerade that could be created that would satisfy the nostalgia this community craves.

              The problem is not that the game has changed, or that books aren't being being pumped out fast enough or that there is no interesting meta plot or that the rules are bad or any of that. The problem is that its not 20 years ago and we, the fans of the original are not our 20 years ago selves.

              I have a group of friends that I tried running a V20 game for, after we had run a V5 campaign, just to see how they liked the difference. I believe the best quote I got from them was that "they like the original Vampire The Masquerade better", but they where referring to V5. Different game, for a different time for a different gaming culture. What can you do, it is what it is.

              Personally I'm sold on V5. I'm on my second chronicle now after a brief pause with the same group and its an absolute smash hit and frankly, my players who never played the original Vampire have no idea what is and isn't missing. They know V5, to them, that's the game, they don't really know the rich culture and history of White Wolf Games, their first introduction into this world is through V5.
              Everyone likes different things. Some people like lutefisk. I have no animosity to lovers of lutefisk.

              But I'm not going to pretend I like it.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Gogobaccala View Post

                Everyone likes different things. Some people like lutefisk. I have no animosity to lovers of lutefisk.

                But I'm not going to pretend I like it.

                Ah in that case you must be a Swede by my estimation. I can't say I have any animosity to eaters of lutefisk, but eeesh, I think I rather eat surstromming!

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                • #68
                  Not a Swede. I just know the taste of old lye fish.

                  "OTHER ERAS
                  By default, Vampire is set tonight, right now.
                  However, nothing stops you from running a chronicle that starts its clock in 1991, 1968, 1888, 1204 or in ancient Rome 120 AD. While this book doesn’t have full rules or setting sup-port for historical chronicles – and obviously no edition could ever cover all of Kindred his-tory – older editions and versions have plenty, most notably Victorian Age Vampire and Vampire: The Dark Ages."

                  Pg. 139, Core rules.

                  We didn't make a full game. But use our good books we used to make if you want useful material.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Gogobaccala View Post
                    Not a Swede. I just know the taste of old lye fish.

                    "OTHER ERAS
                    By default, Vampire is set tonight, right now.
                    However, nothing stops you from running a chronicle that starts its clock in 1991, 1968, 1888, 1204 or in ancient Rome 120 AD. While this book doesn’t have full rules or setting sup-port for historical chronicles – and obviously no edition could ever cover all of Kindred his-tory – older editions and versions have plenty, most notably Victorian Age Vampire and Vampire: The Dark Ages."

                    Pg. 139, Core rules.

                    We didn't make a full game. But use our good books we used to make if you want useful material.

                    Yes, and...? That was pretty much the same in prior editions, core book didn't give you Dark Ages-relevant stuff, or Civil War or anything.

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                    • #70
                      True that. Still the fact it's that the gameline really could use a ST and Player's book. These were always the two important ones, that with the core made the full set every table had to have (and at least the ST book should have rules to flesh out migthy Elders)

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by elmerg View Post


                        Yes, and...? That was pretty much the same in prior editions, core book didn't give you Dark Ages-relevant stuff, or Civil War or anything.
                        If only we had an example of a well laid out core vampire book that gave you a complete view of the game and had value aside as a searchable PDF.

                        If only someone had already published a book like that in 2011...

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