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[V5] Amalgams and Advanced Disciplines

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Draconis View Post

    RAW, amalgams take up one "slot" in one of their two disciplines (but not both—that was an error in the first printing iirc).

    Houseruling that they don't take up slots would be an interesting way to expand their utility; that's how they were in V20 and earlier. The question then is, what should their experience cost be?
    It's not even one of their two. An Amalgam listed in Dominate can only be purchased in Dominate; it just needs whatever else as a prerequisite.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4_Facebook.jpg

    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

    It seems arbitrary for that to apply to amalgams, but not single discipline powers.
    Which part? The 'in either Discipline' (which isn't the case, per book wording and Word of God in the link) or Amalgams exist outside everything? The first one has precedent in prior editions, but isn't the case currently. IT would also change the baselines and remove powers from the various tracks, making some tracks have more powers by default than others.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by elmerg View Post
      Which part? The 'in either Discipline' (which isn't the case, per book wording and Word of God in the link) or Amalgams exist outside everything? The first one has precedent in prior editions, but isn't the case currently. IT would also change the baselines and remove powers from the various tracks, making some tracks have more powers by default than others.
      The suggested house rule about amalgams not taking a discipline slot.

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      • #48
        Where is that suggested? You say it's a house rule?

        I think the move towards amalgams is a mistake and the old system of elder disciplines was much better and, respectfully; one shouldn't be writing a book according to a misinterpretation of a previous book. Perhaps if you revised V5 so that the 5-dot limit wasn't a thing, Mr Dawkins would be very right in asserting that amalgams would present us with impressive elder powers beyond what a neonate could obtain and that 6th level powers may not be necessary (even if getting previously unreachable high level abilities was for me the main appeal for diablerie; I suppose blood potency granting bonus dice can mitigate that loss to a small degree but then.... another rabbit hole)

        But as things are, Disciplines are one of the bigger things that keeps me with V20. Amalgams, as they are, are just more-painful-to-get discipline powers.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

          The suggested house rule about amalgams not taking a discipline slot.

          The arbitrary rule has precedent from prior editions, where Combo Disciplines/Techniques were a new power built with two Discipline prereqs outside of the normal 5 power limit Discipline list.

          I personally think Amalgams are fine as they are, a power that requires facility in something else to use, because of the implicit combined effect.

          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          Where is that suggested? You say it's a house rule?
          It's not suggested by the book. Draconis suggested it as a house rule to mimic how Combo Powers used to work, not that it's implied anywhere in the book at all.

          I think the move towards amalgams is a mistake and the old system of elder disciplines was much better and, respectfully; one shouldn't be writing a book according to a misinterpretation of a previous book. Perhaps if you revised V5 so that the 5-dot limit wasn't a thing, Mr Dawkins would be very right in asserting that amalgams would present us with impressive elder powers beyond what a neonate could obtain and that 6th level powers may not be necessary (even if getting previously unreachable high level abilities was for me the main appeal for diablerie; I suppose blood potency granting bonus dice can mitigate that loss to a small degree but then.... another rabbit hole)

          But as things are, Disciplines are one of the bigger things that keeps me with V20. Amalgams, as they are, are just more-painful-to-get discipline powers.
          Amalgams are built primarily as ways to semi-gatelock powers that are typically used by certain clans, mainly, based on the design philosophy. Then you get into the concept of a Discipline power that is built using aspects of another, thematically and narratively, for how Amalgams are designed. You do realize people can mistype/misspeak without 'writing a book according to a misinterpretation'..Amalgams are specifically designed the way they are (which Dawkins had nothing to do, Karim Muammar and Kenneth Hite did the design of the mechanics), without any reference to elder stuff, regardless of misspeaking on current writers' parts. Elder stuff is now level 4/5 powers because the scale is different.
          Last edited by elmerg; 07-11-2020, 10:26 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            Where is that suggested? You say it's a house rule?

            I think the move towards amalgams is a mistake and the old system of elder disciplines was much better and, respectfully; one shouldn't be writing a book according to a misinterpretation of a previous book. Perhaps if you revised V5 so that the 5-dot limit wasn't a thing, Mr Dawkins would be very right in asserting that amalgams would present us with impressive elder powers beyond what a neonate could obtain and that 6th level powers may not be necessary (even if getting previously unreachable high level abilities was for me the main appeal for diablerie; I suppose blood potency granting bonus dice can mitigate that loss to a small degree but then.... another rabbit hole)

            But as things are, Disciplines are one of the bigger things that keeps me with V20. Amalgams, as they are, are just more-painful-to-get discipline powers.
            I think disciplines are my main gripe with v5, too... Only a few 6+ powers from vtm are possible in v5, so things like became kupala and became a dragon, vozhd etc are just impossible even if you consider amalgams. Gonna stay in Revised too but if Player Guild (xtimas 2019) fix that I would be happy.

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            • #51
              *writes constructive argument*
              Originally posted by elmerg View Post
              "Do you literally have nothing constructive to say, ever?"
              If you ever feel like you need to argue in bad faith, maybe you shouldn't make the argument. It doesn't matter that MD didn't write the system initially, he made a comment about what to do with it that didn't line up with what we have; Amalgam disciplines are not-great , and I'm not "edition warring" with that post; I'm saying I don't like V5 doing this but it would be better if V5 did that (also, Combo disciplines sucked) . If V5 made some minor but important changes (IE dropping the 5 power limit) it'd work better for elders (Note: This looks like a pretty constructive suggestion here) and amalgams would get more time to shine (Because I would pass most of them up, the linear disciplines are more important most of the time as things are currently)

              I don't really get why you need to respond to a fair and balanced set of opinions with such vitriol?


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • #52
                Guys!

                Remember, mutual respect.



                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  *writes constructive argument*


                  If you ever feel like you need to argue in bad faith, maybe you shouldn't make the argument. It doesn't matter that MD didn't write the system initially, he made a comment about what to do with it that didn't line up with what we have; Amalgam disciplines are not-great , and I'm not "edition warring" with that post; I'm saying I don't like V5 doing this but it would be better if V5 did that (also, Combo disciplines sucked) . If V5 made some minor but important changes (IE dropping the 5 power limit) it'd work better for elders (Note: This looks like a pretty constructive suggestion here) and amalgams would get more time to shine (Because I would pass most of them up, the linear disciplines are more important most of the time as things are currently)

                  I don't really get why you need to respond to a fair and balanced set of opinions with such vitriol?
                  Notice how I had rewritten the last part of my post (about ten minutes) before you posted this, because I thought about what I said and realized that what I said wasn't constructive to the conversation.

                  Not sure why you're thinking my statement is in bad faith though; as I'm just stating that people misspeak. Given the circumstances of the book and RAW, that's about all we can go by. But it'd be great to have Dawkins weigh in and clarify on what he meant there.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by elmerg View Post

                    Notice how I had rewritten the last part of my post (about ten minutes) before you posted this, because I thought about what I said and realized that what I said wasn't constructive to the conversation.

                    Not sure why you're thinking my statement is in bad faith though; as I'm just stating that people misspeak. Given the circumstances of the book and RAW, that's about all we can go by. But it'd be great to have Dawkins weigh in and clarify on what he meant there.

                    I don't instantaneously write my posts, nor do I have a live feed of your edits. Also I'm more upset about you being objectively wrong with the insistence of righteousness than rude. Like if you just called me a prick... Well the mods would mind, but I wouldn't care enough to report.

                    I've tried to reach out to MD concerning this, no avail. But I suppose that's understandable.
                    The system as current has nothing in place for "elder powers", other than the golden rule. Which is a shame because I really like VTM for it's -I as a Vampire can obtain the power to do anything another vampire can do... eventually- (Though v5 does grant stronger blood a lot of disadvantages, and you can't get all the powers in a discipline, which seem to run counter to that philosophy) That philosophy set it far apart from your average DnD game and yet encouraging Golden-rule powers tends to create NPC exclusives.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • #55
                      I'm not a fan of the old 6+ dots disciplines. Sure, they sound cool and all, but in the end, it's just fluff powers that PCs would rarely if ever have access to. The V5 method of leaving it at 5 dots, but making high BP vampires so much better at using them sounds totally fair. Although I'd perhaps add one house rule: If a vampire ever gets to 5 dots in a discipline, they can keep just keep paying for more 5 dot disciples to unlock all the other powers that the discipline offers instead of just capping at 5 powers per discipline.

                      Also note that the reason for giving elder vampires in old editions of VTM was because, back then, disciplines didn't use their discipline dots in the roll. So nothing really marked a vampire with high discipline dots as particularly powerful at discipline usage other than simply creating new powers that were godlike in scope. Which was fundamentally broken.

                      Now, in V5, A blood potency 7 elder with five dots in a discipline would have a *crushing* advantage against a younger weaker vamp, even if using the same powers.

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                      • #56
                        I think that 6+ dot disciplines are just an additional dot and not nearly as impressive as people make them out to be.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #57
                          The 6+ Disciplines were a poorly edited mish-mash of things that ranged from, "why am I paying this much for this, it's barely as good as the 3rd dot power, can't it just be a combo Discipline so I can actually pay a reasonable price for it" to, "using this in the game is like whipping out a nuke." There was a distinct lack of consistency to their effects in terms of power level.

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                          • #58
                            I won't make a case for levels 8 and 9, but level 6 and 7 Disciplines were realistic, achievable goals for players and likely powers for elders in your city. raising your limits from 5 to 6 or even 7 was half the reason to want to diablerise. Blood potency comes with a load of cons and doesn't hold that same appeal.


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                            • #59
                              Next, rezz the "Helena/Portia candid camera or real?"

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                              • #60
                                Honestly I still think the growth should be horizontal, not vertical. Rather than adding more dots, you can simply give Elders (and Methuselah's) the ability to develop multiple powers at each given level (and more amalgams as well) and generally learn to be more diverse and adaptable with their disciplines than younger vampires (who might develop their disciplines along only one or two lines.)

                                It's also likely that Older/more powerful vampires would not only be able to amass more abilities within a given discipline, they probably could employ them in greater numbers (and combinations) simultaneously (in a sense 'stacking' powers in a given turn because of their older, more potent blood. Sort of like how in the old game and requiem older vampires not only had more blood, but they could spend more blood per turn.)

                                I mean Vampire powers getting closer to Caine were supposed to - in a sense - be more mutable like that the way thaumaturgy (Heck, Blood Magic made that connection ages ago - Caine's ability to create disciplines on demand was VERY similar to thaumaturgy. The difference being Caine probably didn't have to spend blood the way a Thaumaturge did. So one presumes a Elder/Methuselah 'inceptor' would also get the benefits of thaumaturgy without 'spending' blood to power it, although they should require more time to develop the new abiliteis.)

                                You can still leave 6+ disciplines as some 'Storyteller defined' territory too. The vampiric equivalent of Archmastery from 'Horizon' and its take on '6th level' powers.
                                Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 08-14-2020, 05:34 PM.

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