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Ten Tips to running the Tremere in V5

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Marko Markoko View Post
    Fascinating. I did not know that Vampire drew so heavily from Ars Magica.
    Am I correct in presuming that this Council of Seven are/were the leaders of the Tremere? Who are/were the others? Or more specific, who remains that was taken from Ars Magica lore? Felix Necromius would be an interesting one.
    Ars Magica Third Edition was published when both games were owned by the original White Wolf, and is more or less the medieval World of Darkness. Mark Rein*Hagen, who co-wrote Ars Magica with Jonathan Tweet, created Vampire: The Masquerade.

    Ars Magica 5th edition is quite separate from the World of Darkness - vampires in Ars Magica 5th are a type of fae who mimic the deceased.

    The Order of Hermes and its Houses exist in both WoD and Ars Magica. The names and personalities of the Founders are the same but some of their histories are different in Ars Magica 5th.

    Mistridge and Grimgroth exist in both settings. In Mage: The Sorcerers' Crusade, Mistridge was destroyed by the Craftmasons (proto-Technomancers) after Grimgroth drained all the power from its wards

    The Council of Seven led the Tremere clan. Each had a specific geographic area they were responsible for. The only known list of its members is in the first Clanbook Tremere. They are, or were:-

    Etrius - one of the original seven who transformed into vampires. Eastern Europe
    Grimgroth - western Europe
    Meerlinda - the other original member. North America
    Xavier de Cincao - South America
    Abetorius - near East
    Thomas Wyncham - far East
    Elaine de Calinot - Africa

    Grimgroth (at least, it's heavily hinted to be him), is seen arguing telepathically with Tremere in a Mage supplement called Blood Treachery, which details a brief conflict between Clan Tremere and the Order of Hermes. He is clearly not a happy camper.

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    • #17
      When Tremere diablerized Saulot, Saulot tried to take him over. Tremere fought back. They spent centuries in a stalemate, two souls in the same body, so the Tremere clan was variably under the control of both of them. Tremere escaped into the body of Goratrix (the other surviving "original" Tremere, who led the Sabbat Tremere action), and is now, presumably, posing as Goratrix. Saulot took Tremere's body and disappeared.

      It's possible that Tremere engineered the destruction of the Vienna chantry to stop Saulot controlling the clan, or that Saulot did it, or that Grimgroth acted independently, or that either Tremere or Saulot used Grimgroth as a pawn, or that some other Tremere (Etrius or Meerlinda, most likely), did it to stop Saulot. Or maybe there's a totally different explanation. But given the magnitude of magical power concentrated in the Vienna chantry, it's unlikely that the SI could have taken the place out without inside help.

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      • #18
        I am very familiar with Ars Magica. I even co-wrote a few books for the Fifth edition (Grogs, Tales of Power, and Faith & Flame). In that third book, we tackle the issue of Mistridge. It was never wiped out in cannon. 4th & 5th edition Ars had made a deliberate effort to separate from the WW legacy. So for a long tome, we just pretended it never existed. In F&F, the Provencal Tribunal, we addressed it. An Ex-Miscellanea magus names Tres, of the Rusticani, led a rebellion of peasants to overthrow Mistridge. Grimgroth can be seen on the front cover fighting to hid death.

        What I am *unaware* of is WoD lore outside the paradigm of Mage The Ascension. Mostly M20 and Sorcerers Crusade, but I have lots of old material. I only know a *tiny* bit about Vampire. And naturally, as a mega Ars fan, I am going to pick team Tremere. The group I game with, they *do* know a lot of WoD lore, especially Vampire, but only from Revised editions and earlier. What I see here, and this thread sparked my interest, is an opportunity to present a treat and surprise to these players.

        I have been injecting some Ars Magica lore, and I even for a moment in role-play conversation totally *forgot* Tremere is a Vampire in this reality. Serious! It just slipped my mind. But i brought in Tytalus having returned from the Faerie woods (part of the cannon in both games), and he is wondering what has become of his little brother (Tytalus, Tremere, and Praelix all had the same mistress, Guorna the Fetid, who was a leper magua and powrful necromancer).

        I also have a bias. See, in my view, Mages are the apex power player characters in the oWoD. It I am going to use Vamps as protagonists, what better option than to use Hermetic Wizard Vampires!
        I also think that Vampires have no redeeming qualities, and if they had *any* morals at all, they would commit sunlight suicide. In a Mage game where I was a player and we faced a vampire, I made my apprentices promise and swear that they would execute me if I got turned.
        Last edited by Marko Markoko; 07-11-2020, 07:21 PM.

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        • #19
          I do have Blood Treachery. Good book. I need to read it more.
          If I were to collect Tremere related books for my M20 game, shat would you recommend? V20? Clanbook Tremere? House of Tremere? Which and what?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Marko Markoko View Post
            I do have Blood Treachery. Good book. I need to read it more.
            If I were to collect Tremere related books for my M20 game, shat would you recommend? V20? Clanbook Tremere? House of Tremere? Which and what?
            I would recommend you VTDA20 Corebook, Bloodrites and Lore of the Clans. That are the V20 books where most source about the Tremere is inside. V20 corerulebook has a list of Thaumathurgy for the modern ages and the Theyavalic Tremere.


            As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
            First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
            Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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            • #21
              I also remember Ars Magica and the House Tremere. They were sort of paired with House Tytalus (which is still part of the Order of Hermes in Mage: the Ascension), in that the backstory was that they were constantly in conflict. Tytalus was a bit Neitzschian in philosophy, but more democratic and talented. His ‘little brother’ (in fashion only, not blood related), Tremere, was the least talented of the founding Magi, but the most disciplined and organised. The Tremere were also hierarchal in outlook and power hungry - and constantly at odds with the Tytalus House.

              This Tremere theme past into Vampire, so even though one could argue that they are at a low point after the fall of Vienna, I would be looking at having them antagonist another Clan again while building a new power structure.

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              • #22
                They were the leaders of the Tremere. Etrius, Grimgroth, Goratrix and Meerlinda were all members of House Tremere during the Ars Magica era.


                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                • #23
                  I would recommend you another crossover book between Mage and Vampire, The Red Sign. With Tytali mages trying to undo the vampiric malediction? There you have some good ideas for a chronicle.

                  https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/The_Red_Sign


                  Last edited by Justycar; 07-12-2020, 01:51 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Marko Markoko View Post
                    I do have Blood Treachery. Good book. I need to read it more.
                    If I were to collect Tremere related books for my M20 game, what would you recommend? V20? Clanbook Tremere? House of Tremere? Which and what?
                    In summary: V20 for rules, Clanbook Tremere for background, Red Sign and Blood Treachery for crossover inspiration.

                    V20 has all the rules for playing vampires, including a full treatment of the Thaumaturgy Discipline

                    Lore of the Clans is a great book but it only has about 17 pages on the Tremere. You're probably better off with the older Clanbook:Tremere if you're interested exclusively or primarily in the Tremere

                    House of Tremere is a Dark Ages book that details the foundation of Coeris, the Tremere's transformation into Cainites, and the rise of the clan. It's of limited use for a modern game unless you want to create an elder Tremere character, in which case it's valuable background. And you may enjoy it for its own sake - I certainly did, though it has a few gruesome bits. The Tremere are not nice people.

                    Libellus Sanguinis 2: Keepers of the Lore is a 1st edition Dark Ages book detailing three clans - Brujah, Toreador and Tremere. The second edition Guide to the Low Clans also features the Tremere but mixed in with the other "Low" clans. Again, these could be primarily useful for interest and background, although LS2 does detail the Telyavic Tremere.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Marko Markoko View Post
                      I am very familiar with Ars Magica. I even co-wrote a few books for the Fifth edition (Grogs, Tales of Power, and Faith & Flame)..
                      Off-topic I know, but just to say that those books were excellent. I've used Tales of Power and Faith and Flame as inspiration for some elements of a short story in a related, non-AM supernatural setting. And the fifth edition of the game was superb generally.

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                      • #26
                        If you're playing Mage, the Tremere are half 'Order of Hermes but Vampires" and half Corporation; They're well organized Go-getters who not only leverage their thaumaturgic skills for capital, but also invest heavily in mundane enterprises. Thaumaturgy and their monopoly of it basically makes them a big tech company where, once the Tremere has learnt a ritual, they can leverage it for high prices despite it costing them very little to enact the ritual (once a tech company has created the software, it can continue to rake in money with minimal investment....)

                        A quick lookup of Hermeticism and Alchemy is well worth your time. (If you're not already familiar with them with the Order of Hermes)

                        The things particular to the Tremere is that they like the number 7, and the ideal of their pyramid structure is that one person manages seven people who manage seven people who manage seven people..... seven times. This should mean that a given city will have eight Tremere (One boss or "Regent", seven others or 'apprentices', who might control their own seven non-vampire servants*) but in reality that almost never happens because cities control their vampire populations (and of the few apprentices very few bother with having seven servants)

                        *Gargoyles are not considered vampires by Tremere

                        Some other things concern that most Tremere go through a ritual that sends some of their blood to storehouses in Vienna (To be used against them should they rebel) and they have magical duels with eachother sometimes. They're often partially blood bound to the clan, and most of them haven in their chantry. Other vampire clans don't like them literally because they're too good at what they do (but also they usually lack charisma, proper behaviour, and they'll put clan before friendship 9 times out of 10 , and also they attract "That guy" who gets attracted by thaumaturgy and powergames obnoxiously) Otherwise just think of them as Wizards Incorporated


                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                        • #27
                          Marko Markoko that is really cool! I never played Ars Magica so idk any of that. I do like vampires though.


                          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                          • #28
                            V5 has lots of points I don't particularly like (groups I were part of barely kept track of blood points or hunting, so the whole predator types and hunger system thing would go right out the window), but the loresheets are absolutely awesome. The terrible beating the Tremere got this edition actually makes me want to play one for a change. House Tremere and Karl Schrekt all the way, because screw those Carna guys.

                            What's funny is that one of my besties is DYING to play a Gargoyle.

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                            • #29
                              Everyone wants to be a Gargoyle. I wanted to play a Gargoyle before I watched Gargoyles. (but not in a Dark ages game, they're bad there)

                              With the Tremere now, I like the lore (so long as my conspiratorial theories prove correct) but, well, the loss of Path Magic really takes the thunder away. I wanna be that -Mysteries of the Universe- vampire Not "and for my next trick; something with blood" vampire. It's a weird world when Potence is just as complicated (if not moreso) than the one sorcery path. I play brujah for simple characters, Tremere for complicated ones. So, while I understand "Oh, the shit is happening, let's settle some scores" can be an exciting time, I'd like to do that while throwing fires, levying curses, causing unreal amounts of pleasure (Wait just one moment that's..) and playing in and with the forest...

                              I'm a little disapointed this thread hasn't adressed how magic has changed. I feel like we're in this state where we're pretending the Tremere still have all their tricks (Indeed, some books have implied such) while the core book has denied us them mechanically.

                              (no, making lure of flames a ritual would be silly, don't suggest it again)


                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                I'm a little disapointed this thread hasn't adressed how magic has changed. I feel like we're in this state where we're pretending the Tremere still have all their tricks (Indeed, some books have implied such) while the core book has denied us them mechanically.

                                (no, making lure of flames a ritual would be silly, don't suggest it again)
                                It's canonically a ritual in CULTS OF THE BLOOD GODS and is taught to worshipers of the Church of Caine.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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