Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Difference in power between 4th and 5th gen

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Difference in power between 4th and 5th gen

    A lot has been said about the difference in power between the antedilluvians and their childer but what about 4th and 5th gens?

    Both are considered methuselah's ( if they are over 1000 years old). Sure 4th vampire have some advantages (like acces to level 9 discliplines in v20) but the difference in power doesn't seem to be insurmountable to me.

    And how do we factor age in this? For instance lets take the most badass 5th gen: Izhim ur baal (almost 7000 years old). Obviously he would get curbstomped by the likes of ur-shulgi but how would he measure up against someone like Mithras or Menele? (powerful 4th gens but relatively young).
    Last edited by blackshade; 07-13-2020, 05:57 AM.

  • #2
    Well main point in difference would be on how everything goes. 4th Generation can get attributes to 9 which means the have access on the second last disciple power which are the last from gameing design and usually something big like turn back time, return from the dead, controll everyone down your lineage etc. 4th generation blood is if you go with Corerules still thick enough to let ghouls gain access to disciples like the gen 8-13 vampire.
    So Gen 5 Vampires have one less possible attribute and disciple point, their ghouls can only get disciples as high as 14th generation vampire and they have 20% less blood to spent.
    But yeah this one point in disciples can do mostly the thing.
    Another thing, age can most factor out the power because you can not get so old if you are not skilled and so got the wits and the older you get the more powerfull you became though it can become a weakness to when you are so powerfull, that you can not estimate correctly the threat.
    Though from my point of view the gen 4 are in this sight more carefull then the gen 5 because another gen can theoretically created but gen 4 are the top unless the antes come back and create more.


    As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
    First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
    Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

    Comment


    • #3
      What edition?

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, in literal terms the difference between a 4th and 5th gen is 10 blood points and an extra level of godpowers. But in practical terms level 8 and level 9 powers are on a roughly equal level as far as I can tell. The real difference between a 4th and a 5th gen is one of attitude.

        The way I think of it is that while both 4th and 5th gens are basically godlike in power, 4th gens tend to be a lot more 'antedelluvian like' in that they usually don't go for institutional power, choosing instead to rely on the immense power of their blood and their disciplines to acheive their ends. 5th gens, by contrast, tend to be sect leaders, the rulers of nations and all around 'elders of elders' in whatever organization they are in.

        5th gens are in general a lot more involved in the night to night affairs of their clans, and a lot of them never even met their antedelluvian, so they can be just as clueless as higher gen vamps when it comes to the various burning questions all vampires have, like, 'does Caine really exist' or, 'is the book of nod true' and all the rest of it. Think, Critias and Menele, or Melinda Galbrath and Helena. One is a legendary mythical monster who relies on blood power to get what they want, and their 5th gen childer are sect leaders or very high up elders in the Camarilla/Sabbat/Tal'Mahe'Ra etc.

        So I guess you could say that the difference in power between a 4th and 5th gen is that a 5th gen can easily become the leader a sect, while the 4th gen is kind of a sect in themselves. There are exceptions of course, what with Mithras' long reign as prince of London and being an integral part of the Camarilla, and then you have 5th gens like Louhi who have enough mystical power to be useful servents for, and possibly dangers to, the antedelluvians themselves.

        Of course, if you're a regular Neonate going up against one of these monsters then it doesn't really matter whether the invincible elder is a 5th, 4th or even 3rd gen, you'll still get slaughtered with roughly equal ease

        Comment


        • #5
          NuclearSnake

          ​I think the ninth dot is a little extra ridiculous in many cases, but point taken. 6th Gen are pretty manageable but it also comes down to who wrote up whatever or whoever you are looking at. When they keep printing books you end up with overpowered junk that needs to be ignored like Dominate level 6 Implanted Opinion, way out of balance but you could pick it up with a 7th generation Kindred. Characters like Critias, 5th Gen, over 2000 years old, I've seen 8th gen vampires with a fraction of his age that could take him out. It's really who is doing the writing in a lot of cases.

          One nice thing if you are 4th generation, only a handful of rivals can actually dominate you, it's a nice bonus. I'm a little torn on 5th edition. I like the idea of limiting skills to 5, I could be convinced on stats, but without the crazy elder powers my brain has trouble believing anyone could both stay in the game and survive thousands of years. For the older editions you are right I can (having read too much) make a much more powerful 5th generation vampire than most players could make a 4th gen.

          Non-Diablerie 4th gens get mad bragging rights for actually knowing the clan founder as another bonus.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NuclearSnake View Post
            Well, in literal terms the difference between a 4th and 5th gen is 10 blood points and an extra level of godpowers. But in practical terms level 8 and level 9 powers are on a roughly equal level as far as I can tell. The real difference between a 4th and a 5th gen is one of attitude.

            The way I think of it is that while both 4th and 5th gens are basically godlike in power, 4th gens tend to be a lot more 'antedelluvian like' in that they usually don't go for institutional power, choosing instead to rely on the immense power of their blood and their disciplines to acheive their ends. 5th gens, by contrast, tend to be sect leaders, the rulers of nations and all around 'elders of elders' in whatever organization they are in.

            5th gens are in general a lot more involved in the night to night affairs of their clans, and a lot of them never even met their antedelluvian, so they can be just as clueless as higher gen vamps when it comes to the various burning questions all vampires have, like, 'does Caine really exist' or, 'is the book of nod true' and all the rest of it. Think, Critias and Menele, or Melinda Galbrath and Helena. One is a legendary mythical monster who relies on blood power to get what they want, and their 5th gen childer are sect leaders or very high up elders in the Camarilla/Sabbat/Tal'Mahe'Ra etc.

            So I guess you could say that the difference in power between a 4th and 5th gen is that a 5th gen can easily become the leader a sect, while the 4th gen is kind of a sect in themselves. There are exceptions of course, what with Mithras' long reign as prince of London and being an integral part of the Camarilla, and then you have 5th gens like Louhi who have enough mystical power to be useful servents for, and possibly dangers to, the antedelluvians themselves.

            Of course, if you're a regular Neonate going up against one of these monsters then it doesn't really matter whether the invincible elder is a 5th, 4th or even 3rd gen, you'll still get slaughtered with roughly equal ease
            Totally agree

            Vamps Like Us good point about bragging rights lol


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
              NuclearSnake

              ​I think the ninth dot is a little extra ridiculous in many cases, but point taken. 6th Gen are pretty manageable but it also comes down to who wrote up whatever or whoever you are looking at. When they keep printing books you end up with overpowered junk that needs to be ignored like Dominate level 6 Implanted Opinion, way out of balance but you could pick it up with a 7th generation Kindred. Characters like Critias, 5th Gen, over 2000 years old, I've seen 8th gen vampires with a fraction of his age that could take him out. It's really who is doing the writing in a lot of cases.

              One nice thing if you are 4th generation, only a handful of rivals can actually dominate you, it's a nice bonus. I'm a little torn on 5th edition. I like the idea of limiting skills to 5, I could be convinced on stats, but without the crazy elder powers my brain has trouble believing anyone could both stay in the game and survive thousands of years. For the older editions you are right I can (having read too much) make a much more powerful 5th generation vampire than most players could make a 4th gen.

              Non-Diablerie 4th gens get mad bragging rights for actually knowing the clan founder as another bonus.
              Yeah, some disciplines have 9th dot powers that are actually measurably more powerful than any of their 8th powers (looking at you, chimerstry!) but for the most part they are roughly equivelent. Actually, the same could be said for the level 6-7 dot powers as well. Some of those elder powers feel like they could have been in either level. Like, the level six daimonion power 'ignore the searing flames' literally makes you immune to fire, but the ritual to turn other vamps into Baali is level 7? Also, am I the only one who finds it funny that the only example of a 9th dot daimonion power requires you to literally kill yourself to activate it? What kind of Baali methuselah is gonna do that lol?

              Actually you are totally correct about that immunity to dominate point you made. Something I overlooked in my original point is that the 4th gen often use their 5th gen childer as pawns, either knowingly or unknowingly. For example, Critias has been dominated by Menele before, even though Menele wasn't anywhere near Critias at the time. Also the 5th gen Rafael de Corazon is quite terrified of his sire coming back to Europe and murdering him for using her name and authority to gain power for himself in the Camarilla, though he is rather young for a 5th Gen admittedly. Yeah, having a 4th gen for a sire isn't always a good thing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                NuclearSnake

                ​I think the ninth dot is a little extra ridiculous in many cases, but point taken. 6th Gen are pretty manageable but it also comes down to who wrote up whatever or whoever you are looking at. When they keep printing books you end up with overpowered junk that needs to be ignored like Dominate level 6 Implanted Opinion, way out of balance but you could pick it up with a 7th generation Kindred. Characters like Critias, 5th Gen, over 2000 years old, I've seen 8th gen vampires with a fraction of his age that could take him out. It's really who is doing the writing in a lot of cases.

                One nice thing if you are 4th generation, only a handful of rivals can actually dominate you, it's a nice bonus. I'm a little torn on 5th edition. I like the idea of limiting skills to 5, I could be convinced on stats, but without the crazy elder powers my brain has trouble believing anyone could both stay in the game and survive thousands of years. For the older editions you are right I can (having read too much) make a much more powerful 5th generation vampire than most players could make a 4th gen.

                Non-Diablerie 4th gens get mad bragging rights for actually knowing the clan founder as another bonus.
                Critias survived a fall of 73 stories with Stamina 6 and Fortitude 2, so his prowess is more from his ability to massively rise his stats through the power of his blood (and this accidentally broke the bond to his sire).

                There are many that can dominate a 4th generation, any 5th or 6th generation cainite with Path of Blood in 3 can easily lower to 4th or beyond with marginal successes (though I have a house rule to lower up to 4th max) and be capable to Dominte a 4th generation methuselah. Theoretically, Menele and Helena had Thaumaturgy (from 2nd ed in which Path of Blood was inherently from the discipline itself) and therefore they could lower their generation to 3rd generation with only 1 success (if not, this power would be completely useless to them).

                - Saga

                Comment


                • #9
                  From what I've seen, level 9 discipline powers seem to primarily have an advantage of scope over level 8 powers. They don't make you significantly better in a fight or affect anyone that much more intensely, but they let you mesmerize your entire bloodline or influence the mood of a whole city, not just everyone in the same room with you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Saga View Post

                    Critias survived a fall of 73 stories with Stamina 6 and Fortitude 2, so his prowess is more from his ability to massively rise his stats through the power of his blood (and this accidentally broke the bond to his sire).

                    There are many that can dominate a 4th generation, any 5th or 6th generation cainite with Path of Blood in 3 can easily lower to 4th or beyond with marginal successes (though I have a house rule to lower up to 4th max) and be capable to Dominte a 4th generation methuselah. Theoretically, Menele and Helena had Thaumaturgy (from 2nd ed in which Path of Blood was inherently from the discipline itself) and therefore they could lower their generation to 3rd generation with only 1 success (if not, this power would be completely useless to them).

                    - Saga

                    Critias does not have the stats and powers to hold up in many serious fights but I thought his bond broke when Menele skipped off to the middle east and died? I am very behind on my modern Chicago lore it seems. The problem is the price of the books to basically read a mirror mirror episode that I'll never use.

                    I concede to forgetting about the path of blood since my world has no Tremere or blood magic for vampires. I just use Thaumaturgy and the sorcerer supplement for human mages and stick to no vampire mages like I stick to no abominations. I suppose it applies in most games.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


                      Critias does not have the stats and powers to hold up in many serious fights but I thought his bond broke when Menele skipped off to the middle east and died? I am very behind on my modern Chicago lore it seems. The problem is the price of the books to basically read a mirror mirror episode that I'll never use.

                      I concede to forgetting about the path of blood since my world has no Tremere or blood magic for vampires. I just use Thaumaturgy and the sorcerer supplement for human mages and stick to no vampire mages like I stick to no abominations. I suppose it applies in most games.

                      The fall and breaking of the bond happened during the ol' white-wolf days in "Year of the Scarab trilogy"

                      - Saga

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        (Taking an amalgam perspective that essentially overviews the previous editions' bits and pieces/setting shifts) : there isn't that much of a major difference between the 4th and 5th generations (other than the very obvious differences in Discipline steps, blood pool, etc.). The power difference between the Antediluvians and those that were made after The Flood (read: after a major metaphysical shift in Reality(tm) took place) is a more major step than is between any other steps/"breaks" in the generations (such as occurs between 7th and 8th then at 13th+). Post-flood, no new "blood gods" could be made, unlike before when/where any vampires made, even several steps removed from Caine, were Antediluvian(tm) in status, both by dint of age as well as potential power. (This is also why, for further metaphysical comparison, why in one of the Gehenna storylines those vampires who survived post-Gehenna (the end of the story-arc, when/where the "old world" was effectively lost/changed and the Antis defeated) became themselves the "AntiGehennans", as it were, with it noted that their blood pools and potential powers increasing dramatically, essentially because the binding metaphysics of the previous world were undone/broken.) In certain contexts, however, there may be great circumstantial differences between them due to most 4th generation vampires being at least several thousand years old (hailing from an era when Antediluvians more often walked the earth), while a number of 5th generation vampires are of a broader range of potential age (from near the same as any 4th gen. vampire, if made not long after/by them, to last Tuesday when they were newly embraced). But other than that, there's really not that major a metaphysical difference compared to the relatively massive step in blood and metaphysics with those created before The Flood.


                        I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In V20&pre?

                          Mechanically: fourth are stronger than fifth, all other factors being equal.

                          That last clause sounds innocuous, right? It isn't. Age, experience, and merits/flaws are additional factors which must be considered.

                          Also, clan matters. The dominate rule is most important for those that have dominate. Thaumaturgy 9 opens up rituals thaumaturgy 8 doesn't. Ditto for the auspex-obfuscate interaction. Most disciplines, though, the different between level 8 and 9 are minimal. So, the power gap is (slightly) greater for Tremere or Malkavians, rather than, say, Brujah or Gangrel.

                          However, don't forget the value of having a personal relationship with a 3rd gen.

                          Third gens are more powerful than most fourth, fifth, and every lower gen. The vast majority of fourth gens (aside from those who drank their way to the top) have been embraced by a third gen. Third gens, being ancient blood gods not known for doing anything on a whim, will have done so because they had plans for their new childe. Assuming the childe more-or-less goes along with their sire's plans, they can expect to be shielded from most attackers who would disrupt those plans by randomly destroying them.

                          Never underestimate the value of having a bloodgod on speed dial.

                          (Unless you're a Tzimisce. The further from that writhing pile of crazy, the better. It's not so much a clan, as a hostage situation.)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                            A lot has been said about the difference in power between the antedilluvians and their childer but what about 4th and 5th gens?

                            Both are considered methuselah's ( if they are over 1000 years old). Sure 4th vampire have some advantages (like acces to level 9 discliplines in v20) but the difference in power doesn't seem to be insurmountable to me.
                            The way I envision it, there is more to 4th Generation Methuselahs than the numbers and statistics. They might have amazingly sharp deduction capabilities, being able to tell a lie from truth, or being able to ascertain the right course of action from just a few details. Some might be able to read omens. Their Vitae might be so potent that even their (human) Blood Bound servants are superior to other mundane humans. Or they might be able to 'travel down the memory lane' to such an extent that the events play out for them as if they were happening again.

                            I was recently thinking just how to make Methuselah Vampires more unique. I thought up that they could have 'Dread Powers' that only the 4th and the 5th Generation can have. Stuff like the above, but also some clearly supreme abilities like gifting a Ghoul with knowledge of Disciplines, raising other Vampires from Torpor, or having a tangible feeling of malice and fear around them.

                            I agree with what is written in the posts above about 3rd Generation Vampires - being Childer of these Vampires is definitely a consideration and a factor in regard to 4th Generation Methuselahs.

                            Also, 4th Generation Methuselahs can create 5th Generation Childer ( it might seem obvious, but I just thought this should be mentioned ).
                            Last edited by Muad'Dib; 07-16-2020, 02:51 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                              The way I envision it, there is more to 4th Generation Methuselahs than the numbers and statistics. They might have amazingly sharp deduction capabilities, being able to tell a lie from truth, or being able to ascertain the right course of action from just a few details. Some might be able to read omens. Their Vitae might be so potent that even their (human) Blood Bound servants are superior to other mundane humans. Or they might be able to "travel down the memory lane" to such an extent that the events play out for them as if they were happening again.

                              I was recently thinking just how to make Methuselah Vampires more unique, I've come up that they could have 'Dread Powers' that only the 4th and the 5th Generation can have. Stuff like the above, but also some clearly supreme abilities like gifting a Ghoul with knowledge of Disciplines, raising other Vampires from Torpor, or having a tangible feeling of malice and fear around them.

                              I agree with what is written above about 3rd Generation Vampires - being Childer of these Vampires is definitely a consideration and a factor in regard to 4th Generation Methuselahs.

                              Also, 4th Generation Methuselahs can create 5th Generation Childer (it might seem obvious, but I just thought it should be mentioned ) .
                              I like that idea about giving 4-5th gens 'dread powers'. Seems like it would really be great just to show why these vampires are called 'methuselah', wheras a 2000 year old 6th gen would still be referred to as an 'elder'.

                              I believe that in earlier editions (2nd ed I believe) 5th gen and lower vampires did actually have some unique innate powers that other vamps could not achieve. Things like healing aggravated damage as though it were lethal, and being more resistant to the call of daysleep.

                              Damn, now I have to go back and read my old books.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X