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Bloodlines 2, Vein Pursuit and the Sabbat... (potential spoilers!)

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  • Bloodlines 2, Vein Pursuit and the Sabbat... (potential spoilers!)

    So... I finished watching the Vein Pursuit YouTube show. Right at the end of the series there are a few hints of what we can expect in the Bloodlines 2 videogame that make me think the Sabbat may be involved with its plot.

    1. As everyone who bothered following BL2 knows, the protagonist will be a thinblood victim of a mass embrace. We all know what faction used to resort to mass embraces as a war strategy.
    2. Right at the end of Vein Pursuit we learn one of the 2 main antagonists who's also an important NPC in BL2 is a Tzimisce who knows the Zulo form. Tzimisce are supposed to be Sabbat hardliners still.
    3. The same character is apparently hunting down the thinbloods who emerged from the mass embrace...

    So it seems to me BL2 could very well bring back a piece of the Sabbat and give us Tzimisces. Given how important sucha game will be to promote VtM it could be that we'll get a glimpse of the evolution chosen for the sect and clan in V5.

    P.S.

    As for the show... well, I'd call what I saw as "questionable storytelling" (not a fan of that style really, too railroady, besides some rule calls, like forcing players to shoot with Resolve+Firearms because the ST didn't like the overuse of dexterity, I don't agree with and some events were clearly pre planned) and the players failed more often than not, spending most of their time feeding, searching for shelter and generally making horrible calls (like threatening a guy into defending them while asleep... the guy obviously ran asap).

  • #2
    Regarding shooting as Resolve + Firearms: The rulebook uses Composure + Firearms which is also not Dexterity. Resolve + Firearms is mentioned for sniper attacks. Karim is one of the main designers of the main rulebook, so I think that the game matches his preferences

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Haquim View Post
      So... I finished watching the Vein Pursuit YouTube show. Right at the end of the series there are a few hints of what we can expect in the Bloodlines 2 videogame that make me think the Sabbat may be involved with its plot.

      1. As everyone who bothered following BL2 knows, the protagonist will be a thinblood victim of a mass embrace. We all know what faction used to resort to mass embraces as a war strategy.
      2. Right at the end of Vein Pursuit we learn one of the 2 main antagonists who's also an important NPC in BL2 is a Tzimisce who knows the Zulo form. Tzimisce are supposed to be Sabbat hardliners still.
      3. The same character is apparently hunting down the thinbloods who emerged from the mass embrace...

      So it seems to me BL2 could very well bring back a piece of the Sabbat and give us Tzimisces. Given how important sucha game will be to promote VtM it could be that we'll get a glimpse of the evolution chosen for the sect and clan in V5.

      P.S.

      As for the show... well, I'd call what I saw as "questionable storytelling" (not a fan of that style really, too railroady, besides some rule calls, like forcing players to shoot with Resolve+Firearms because the ST didn't like the overuse of dexterity, I don't agree with and some events were clearly pre planned) and the players failed more often than not, spending most of their time feeding, searching for shelter and generally making horrible calls (like threatening a guy into defending them while asleep... the guy obviously ran asap).
      1. This is also a thing Anarchs do as well, particularly more now that they're not Camarilla Lite.
      2. We know next to nothing about the Tzimisce as they are in V5. What we know of them posits most of them gone to the Gehenna Crusade, and at least some friendly with the Camarilla as Prince of Tokyo. Also,

      Regarding the rules, eh? The book doesn't have 100% pre-determined rolls for combat; you're not always doing dex + firearms or strength + brawl. The book gives different setups to fit the narrative. That's not something on Karim (who is, also, the main mechanical designer for V5).

      Though I am curious about the SPC with the war form, if they're using it as a playtest method for revised Tzimisce stuff from what was kiicked back for rewrites from the Player's Guide.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
        Regarding shooting as Resolve + Firearms: The rulebook uses Composure + Firearms which is also not Dexterity. Resolve + Firearms is mentioned for sniper attacks. Karim is one of the main designers of the main rulebook, so I think that the game matches his preferences
        I know you can but claiming you do so because you don't like dexterity being overused I don't like. And with all due respect "firearms" should already cover your training at shooting under pressure, dexterity should be used to determine how accurate you can be.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Haquim View Post

          I know you can but claiming you do so because you don't like dexterity being overused I don't like. And with all due respect "firearms" should already cover your training at shooting under pressure, dexterity should be used to determine how accurate you can be.
          Agree. Maybe in a seriously crazy fire fight you have to make a composure roll to keep your cool and not take a difficulty penalty from all the stuff going on, but it makes no sense to determine your accuracy.

          It feels just like Pillars of Eternity, they had dex making you harder to hit in the original release, but changed it to resolve just because everyone was taking tons of dex and using resolve as a dump stat. Make the roll make no sense whatsoever for some sort of illusion of balance.

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          • #6
            Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you.- Sheriff "Little Bill" Daggett, The Unforgiven

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            • #7
              I'm not going to watch the whole episodes, so who was the character that's been revealed already that's a Tzimisce?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
                I'm not going to watch the whole episodes, so who was the character that's been revealed already that's a Tzimisce?
                Watch the last 2 episodes. Anyway it’s a long haired guy of indeterminate sex who doesn’t talk and works with another burly bearded vampire.
                Last edited by Haquim; 07-24-2020, 08:04 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                  I know you can but claiming you do so because you don't like dexterity being overused I don't like. And with all due respect "firearms" should already cover your training at shooting under pressure, dexterity should be used to determine how accurate you can be.


                  As someone who's used firearms I'd argue the importance of being able to handle Recoil is probably more important for extended firing than aiming a first shot. And even that Aiming might more readily be covered in visual accuity vs manual dexterity(I mean its a mix of both but if one is going to choose one it could be as much manual dexterity as visual accuity)

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                  • #10
                    The book has composure, dexterity or resolve + firearms. I like this in principle. It gives you the ability to adapt the roll to the situation you want to portray.

                    - From the ST side one combination is easily overused and the others forgotten. You can determine the difficulty by framing the situation in a way to pick the desired dice pool.

                    - As a player it can be frustrating because you just want to shoot the guy, but the dice pool might vary significantly. You can be John Wick one Moment and a Stormtrooper the next.
                    I have seen players be disappointed and stick to save descriptions - limiting flair,spontaneity, creativity in a small way.
                    Last edited by mfalkenb; 07-24-2020, 06:59 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post



                      As someone who's used firearms I'd argue the importance of being able to handle Recoil is probably more important for extended firing than aiming a first shot. And even that Aiming might more readily be covered in visual accuity vs manual dexterity(I mean its a mix of both but if one is going to choose one it could be as much manual dexterity as visual accuity)
                      As someone who owns and uses firearms, I'd argue that getting the sights back on target is most important and requires dexterity more than anything else. Let's take this to the logical extreme and require strength to compensate for the recoil, stamina to keep shooting and resighting, dex to resight and composure to keep your cool. We're up to 4 rolls already. Let's just stick with the main attribute that gets used for this, which is logically dex. Like I said, maybe in an absolutely crazy firefight, you could require a composure roll to keep your cool and not take a difficulty penalty, but requiring composure on a firearms roll is a false sense of balance.

                      Social vampires already had their arena that combat specialized characters couldn't compete in. Max out your social attributes and insult the badass Brujah in Elysium and there's nothing he could do. If he wants to maim you, it's a traditions violation. If he frenzies the whole of the court will bring him down. Not too mention there's all the clubs and boardrooms you can play up your social attributes in. There's no reason to drag a social attribute into a gun fight. There's literally no reason to make this a social attribute roll other than to create some false illusion of balance. If you're a mental or social character, your battlegrounds are not back alley gun fights but clubs, Elysium and boardrooms.

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                      • #12
                        I think Karim's sentiment probably stems from the overuse of Dexterity in previous editions. It was the physical attribute that mattered most. This has been somewhat toned down already. In Bloodline 1 by the way, Firearms skill depended on the Perception attribute.

                        As someone playing the game, I honestly don't care one ounce about real life. V5 is abstracted enough for real life not to matter much (combat can even be compacted into one roll for each person to achieve their intent). So using Composure or Resolve together with the Firearms skill makes senes to me. The only thing as an ST I would do, is communicate this up-front during character creation. Apparently Meyer in Vein Pursuit was built with the false assumption that high Dexterity would make him a good combatant in the game. That's something that the ST should have explicitly stated that that wouldn't be the case.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                          2. Right at the end of Vein Pursuit we learn one of the 2 main antagonists who's also an important NPC in BL2 is a Tzimisce who knows the Zulo form. Tzimisce are supposed to be Sabbat hardliners still.
                          Weren't the Tzimisce supposed to get Protean instead of Vicissitude? Shame if they won't, I hope they end up with it because
                          1) It makes Protean a common Discipline, rather than exclusive to the Gangrel.
                          2) Stoker's Dracula spoilers
                          Considering how Vampires in the book can change their form in various ways, the Tzimisce with Protean would be a wonderful tribute to this great book.

                          3) Auspex, Animalism, Protean makes for an interesting Discipline spread for this Clan ; it is full of utility and characterful.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            Weren't the Tzimisce supposed to get Protean instead of Vicissitude? Shame if they won't, I hope they end up with it because
                            1) It makes Protean a common Discipline, rather than exclusive to the Gangrel.
                            2) Stoker's Dracula spoilers
                            Considering how Vampires in the book can change their form in various ways, the Tzimisce with Protean would be a wonderful tribute to this great book.

                            3) Auspex, Animalism, Protean makes for an interesting Discipline spread for this Clan ; it is full of utility and characterful.
                            I'm not sure I agree. Protean could work for self transformation but vicissitude also permanently changes the flesh of other beings. Besides Protean is a "normal" power of the blood while vicissitude is demonic in origin as the Eldest developed it with Kupala's help.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                              Weren't the Tzimisce supposed to get Protean instead of Vicissitude? Shame if they won't, I hope they end up with it because
                              1) It makes Protean a common Discipline, rather than exclusive to the Gangrel.
                              2) Stoker's Dracula spoilers
                              Considering how Vampires in the book can change their form in various ways, the Tzimisce with Protean would be a wonderful tribute to this great book.

                              3) Auspex, Animalism, Protean makes for an interesting Discipline spread for this Clan ; it is full of utility and characterful.
                              As far as we know they still have protean in some form. What we can say for sure is that Viss as it's own discipline is gone. That's not the V5 method of design and, let's be honest. Viss barely worked as it's own discipline as it was "Basic power. Expanding the limits of said power. Expanding the limits of that power a little further. Blood form out of nowhere. Warform out of nowhere." It might end up being a protean or blood sorcery amalgam but I'd say with high confidence it'll be an amalgam.

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