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diminishing return on age

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Koronus View Post

    Well this is an actual edition retcon because they want the game to be more Requiem like where it is like this.
    Until V20 it whas from restriction that the sky is the limit.
    I'm not 100% sure, but antideluvians in revised had to diablerize younger vampires to regain their potency after waking up from torpor,
    at least, that's what Set did


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    • #17
      I think that's from one of the fiction stories in Gehenna, which had huge variances in what was going on between its different scenarios.

      Elder vampires have been depicted as weakened upon awakening from torpor and needing time to recover their full might at least since Diablerie: Britain.

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      • #18
        It was indeed a Gehenna scenario, which have their non canonical variables.

        As for vampires being weaker leaving torpor; I imagine that's just because they used a few powers which used blood whilst controlling things from their sleep.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by blackshade View Post
          Surely there is a limit on the power that age brings with it. I don't believe that vampires will, indefinitely, get more powerful as they grow older (does it really matter if you are a 3000 year old 4th gen vampire or a 4000 year old 4th gen vampire?) At some point they will reach their max potential and every year after that, shouldn't make them noticeable more powerful. At what age do you guys think a vampire will reach the saturaited point?

          And does generation matter? Will a lower gen vampire reach his max potential faster? Or does generation only effect the height of a vampire's power and not the speed they will reach it?

          Yes generation matters, a lot in fact. The max number of dots you can buy in a discipline is tied to your generation, with 10 dots at 3rd generation, 9 4th 8 5th 7 6th 6 7th. 5 after that.
          That said you maximum bloodpool is also directly affected by your generation, the lower your generation the more blood points you can store (making your blood more potent) As i recall 50 4th gen, 40 at 5th, 30 at 6th, 20 at 7th 15 at 8th, 12 at 9th and 11 at 10th. 3rd and higher is unknown 11th and lwoer get 10.
          That said i recall your maximum attributes and abilities also directly tied to your generation, with 10 dots in an attribute / skill at 3rd generation max 10 4th 9 5th 8 6th 7 7th 6 and 5 after that

          That said, Generation also affects your general standing in Kainite society, with those closer to Caine having a better standing than those further removed, which also directly affects your dominate discipline as one can not dominate a kindred of lower generation than your own (thus you cant be dominated by a higher generation than your own)
          And there may in fact be other hidden perks to having a low Generation, like having as tronger voice in the blood to subtly influence your childer and manipulate them without their knowing. At 3rd gen you can also achieve amaranth in your main discipline which has effects beyond any ruleset but is supposed to be ultimate mastery, becoming the discipline (like ascension for mages)
          There is a reason why Assamites spend their unlife trying to lower their generation and diablery, despite being very highly forbidden, is still practised.

          Age matters as well. The idea that there are hard limits on what one can achieve is a very human idea. Sure the actual differences between someone with 30 years of Karate experience and someone with 40 years of Karate experience are very slim. So yes you could reach a hard limit there. BUT
          BUT.....if you have 400 years you can not only completly master karate, but a lot of other martial arts as well giving you a vast edge over someone who only mastered one.
          This is more visible in academic pursuits. Sure, you can get a phd in 10 years. And youll know quite a bit on that topic. And sooner or later you will reach a barrier where all you could do to increase your knolwedge is doing research yourself. HOWEVER if you have 4000 years you can be a legit phd in every single branch of academie, thus having not only insane ammounts of knowledge but also the unique ability of interdisciplinary communication which may give you insights that are forever barred from mortals

          That said age means more time to get and ofc spend XP gamemechanicwise.

          That said old vampries tend to go itno torpor for centuries and a 4000 year old kainite may indeed have spent half his unlife in torpor, effecitvely gaining nothing in that time frame but maybe a deeper understanding of the blood.

          Ive also seen rules on elders and that you still gain some XP during torpor but thats up to the gamemaster to decice.

          Edit: found it its called "maturation points" and you receive them per century of age.

          And ofc there is a rule that you loose humanity based on age, basicly loosing 1 permament humanity point / 500 years of age. So if your normal max humanity is 10, at age 1500 your maximum score would be 7. Making sure that old vampires become beasts
          Last edited by Orkar; 08-09-2020, 08:33 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

            I want to highlight that I really mean this from a socially practical point of view. I don't think elders and ancients become physically and mentally unfit with learning new things (I loath the suggestion) it's just that there's no need for them to learn new things. Evolution in nature isn't about animals getting better for the sake of getting better, it's about being good enough to be considered successful. Once you're good enough, nature doesn't improve you.

            (I've been watching some gun videos lately, so the analogy might not be for everyone) Imagine you want to shoot things. Some people buy a gun, they go to a range, they stand still and they shoot at targets over and over again. They learn to reload fairly well and aim the gun well, and that's good enough for them. You can happily do just that for your entire lifetime and die with two dots of firearms. Or you can drill fastdraws, learn to shoot on the move, fire shots are rediculous ranges, engage different targets under a timer... and gain 4 dots of firearms in a potentially a matter of months...

            ...You become static because you become comfortable, not because some writer thought it sounded cool to say 'Vampires are static' as if the preservative effect in their blood gives them a learning disability.
            There's 2 issues I have with this line of thinking though: Mutation and external changes.

            Even "perfectly" evolved creatures like crocadiles and sharks(which have had essentially the same design for millions of years), go through mutations and changes just through random chance(random genetic damage). Similarly, it's a well known fact in psychology that people gradually change over time simply from accumulating experiences, even ones that fit inside their world-view. People are always gradually changing, it's just too gradual to notice most of the time.

            Secondly, people also change drastically when their environment changes. Human society itself changes drastically based on the time and place, so a torpored elder waking up is going to suddenly find a lot of new tricks to learn and just as many reasons to learn them. The fact that the changes to human society Accelerate exponentially with the advancement of technology and communication multiplies this.

            I see a lot of people tend to use "old person" example to explain why elders are static. Grampa can't seem to learn how to use the computer, so it's understandable that an elder vampire would eventually become a static individul unable to change. Their are a couple of problems with this reasoning, in that the main reason it's hard for grampa is because his body and mind are breaking down from age and making him rely heavily on habits to get through most days(a problem vampires don't really have) and the fact that grampa Is Learning Despite This. There's actually been an influx of older people on the internet in recent years as "grampas" have it on themselves the time to learn the internet. The stereotype only exists because "Grampa" is learning slower than a younger person(for biological reasons) and making mistakes that only seem like common sense to people who already know what they're doing.

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