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Help with rules arbitration: Humanity 10 issues

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  • Help with rules arbitration: Humanity 10 issues

    So a character comes straight off the bat with 10 humanity and has flaws to represent being an untrained caitiff with zero clue as what to do. Just some random guy with a kid and wife who was turned and ditched the same night.

    In the story he knows vampires are feeding from people. Days passing and injuries healing cause his blood pool to drop to 3. He starts to get desperate to feed and was on the fence on what to do. He thought about robbing a blood bank, which I was all for but didn't speak up and let him finish his train of thought. Then he just blatantly decided to seduce a mortal to feed on them. I had the rolls done and based on my interpretation of the rules, he should have to roll conscience since he has humanity 10.
    Whenever a character takes an action that the Storyteller decides is morally questionable, the character may suffer degeneration — a permanent loss of Humanity. If degeneration is a possibility, the player whose character commits the act should make a Conscience roll for that character. The difficulty is 8 — reprehensible acts are hard to justify though the Storyteller may modify this. Willpower may not be spent for an automatic success on this roll — all the ego in the world won’t protect a character from guilt. If the player makes the roll with even one success, the character loses no Humanity — he feels enough remorse or somehow manages to justify his transgression. If he fails the roll, the character loses a point of Humanity. If the player botches, the character loses a point of both Humanity and Conscience, and also gains a derangement, decided upon by the Storyteller. Obviously, morality is not something a Kindred can afford to take lightly. Remember that a vampire whose Humanity drops to zero becomes a character controlled by the Storyteller.

    So should he lose a point of humanity for feeding? Are there other factors I should consider? The book only says diff 8 or higher for conscience rolls.

  • #2
    if the feeding is consensual, he doesn't need to roll for degeneration,
    seduction, feeding on a blood bound or presence'd subject count as consensual (don't ask me why, I don't know, and I don't care),

    other types of feeding would cause degeneration,

    high humanity vampires feed on animals instead to not degenerate



    • #3
      Though with humanity 10 you should have let him already roll conscience because he even thought (loud) about robbing a blood bank. Humanity 10 means you are a completely selfless person which is the reason why it is so hard to keep. At Humanity 10 there is already a sin about thinking selfish things and it is not said without reason that humanity 8-10 are more human then the average human. Another thing is, he should only then loose humanity automatic, if he is doing something where he declares that he has no guilt about it. If he after seducing the mortal and drinking from him while sex says, that he feels from it no guilt (because it whas mayby an equal trade) then he should have lose one point of humanity for harming a human and it is above his sinlist. Road of humanity is extremly about feeling guilty being a nice person. If you for example would kill an massmurder or massrapist and saying you feel no guilt about making the live better by taking him out you still loose one humanity because for this actions the Path of Honorable Accord or even better the Via Equitum, the path of chivalry would be.
      The seduction would be still as humanity 9 vampire be a roll for conscience because he still tried to seduce one so he can feed on her (during sex). The only way for his conscience to be clear would be first seducing a mortal and then after you know (s)he cares for you, explain her what you are and say that you want to drink her blood because you need it to survive.
      Another reason why I always combine high humanity vampires with true love merit, you do not need time to build up a releationship
      The only other way for feeding without conscienceloss would be the said above feeding on animals.

      As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
      First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
      Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.


      • #4
        Feeding off animals appears to be the way to go with this character. Is it still referred to as going Vegan?


        • #5
          Humanity 10 is playing a "living saint", you are a vampire that is more human than 99% of humans. It's pretty difficult to play such a character especially considering the things a Vampire has to do in order to keep existing so I would have warned the player that starting with such an high score in humanity would be challenging. That said, witha score of 10 in Humanity, feeding from animals or having someone help you (out of the goodness of their hearts) are the only ways I can think of to feed without incurring into humanity checks right from the start.


          • #6
            My recommendation: Don't be too hard on him. Judge it to whatever level increases player enjoyment.

            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.


            • #7
              All fair points. He still referred to having a living family as his backstory which could draw more drama. Perhaps “cheating” on her draws moral issues.


              • #8
                I think a huge, important question to raise with your player is this: what's the story behind how this character managed to become practically a saint? What was his life like before the Embrace that reflected this immense moral effort? How did it show up in his marriage, family, etc?

                If the player can define that, and then talk about how the Embrace has changed things, y'all have a story. If they can't, it's a weird mechanical situation without a driving dramatic beat. The first makes a much stronger character.


                • #9

                  Seducing mortals is cheating on his wife no? Death is the only reasonable recourse.

                  Ignoring that; I think, if you only take 1 blood from a seduced victim, I'd let you off. The pleasure of the kiss outweighs the effect of blood loss; they'd only really notice if they were doing intense athletics within the next six weeks.

                  I do seriously wonder how a player can justify a character starting at 10 humanity. I normally wouldn't let it happen. You'd need like... 7 points of merits in additional conscience dice or something. Or learn Bardo.. which a fledgling isn't doing.

                  The "definetly good" options are:
                  Consensualist: Of course, the character from your description should be on really thin ice if not the chopping block, so this is maybe a dumb idea.
                  Corpse feeder: Take blood from the deceased. Hang around a morgue or a hospital or an arbitoir. The thing is there's not much of a window for the blood to be viable and in smaller locals people aren't dying every night or even every few days. The good news is that when someone dies you can probably safely take six (three) units of blood after the examination... so it could sustain you so long as you aren't blood-buffing or using expensive disciplines. Personally I'd advise your player to start doing this (if you don't execute his character for the crime of existence)

                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.


                  • #10
                    I'd start a conversation with him on what Humanity 10 means. Does he truly want to play someone, with all the restrictions it implies, with that high level of Humanity? If so, let him know that he's already had several thoughts and actions that violate it. Does he really want to start damaging it so soon? Or if he does what to retain a high Humanity, help him learn what are the appropriate things he should be doing.

                    If not, then regardless of whatever Humanity the character starts with, figure out what level of Humanity truly represents what he wants his character to be in terms of the actions he can take without endangering it. You can then figure out together what will happen before the character stabilizes at that humanity.

                    I usually have these conversations with PCs in my games before we start. Because while they may start at Humanity 6 or 7 (usually), most PCs are actually comfortable being at a 4. And we all understand the PC is going to lose some Humanity over the course of the chronicle. I've even had some Players who didn't want to roleplay that, so we just lowered their Humanity to where they "should" be, or we had mutual agreement the character would simply fail any morality checks (for most things, there was always the possibility they might end up doing something they did not intend and what be remorseful for).

                    Based on what you told us, it seems that the PC would not normally want to rob a blood bank or seduce a mortal so he could feed, but he felt compelled to do so in order to survive in exceptional circumstances. If that is the case, then that is precisely what Humanity checks are for - making sure he feels remorse at his actions. Those actions might have been necessary, but a Humanity 10 vampire should still feel he has failed because the bar is so high.

                    However, you may also want to discuss alternate paths to handle this, at least for this occasion since the chronicle is new, and allow him to come up with ways to prevent such an occurrence in the future. It all depends on what will keep the game fun especially since it is so easy to derail character concepts early in the game.


                    • #11
                      The player is a pacifist himself. Based on his personality and the ability to make a interesting enough story with this arc I saw no issues letting him start at the top and see if he wobbled and stumbled down the path of power most fledglings do.

                      I’ll impose feelings of guilt based on his actions. This could lead to him discovering alternate ways to feed.

                      The mortician route will tie into meeting a particular NPC I have in mind.

                      The vegan route could clash with other ‘bottom feeders’ who are struggling as well.

                      His high humanity ties into at least two side plots I have preplanned so this’ll work well I think.