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The Beast made me do it! A convenient excuse?

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  • #16
    I do think vampires disassociate when they call their new urges "the beast" and speak of it as separate from them. I suppose it is a natural coping mechanism. But to me, the newly embraced vampire ends up with an entirely new set of emotional responses which is completely alien to the previously human mindset. So it is a natural reaction to brand it as "other", and "not me".

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    • #17
      The beast made me do it is only an excuse (more accurately a weak excuse) to my mind when you use it to gloss over the mistakes the beast didn't force you to make, such as going hunting in a stressful situation with high hunger being a mistake that enabled the beast to have an advantage over you and take it. Of course the beast is the one that drained that mortal dry, but that doesn't absolve you of the fact that you put yourself in a situation where that was a not insignificant risk. On the flip side the beast is in fact a tangible, detectable, manipulable entity that can be drawn to the fore or pushed aside with sufficient disciplines.That to me means it is not only definitely a thing and definitely an excuse at times, but also something other vampires would be forced to acknowledge as a thing too. I mean it's hard to deny the beast exists when you have an Animalism power to detect it and others to make it do things. I suppose some might call it by different names and have different theories for it across sects and backgrounds and clans, but really I think it's been enough of a constant aspect of vampiric existence that it's likely codified and understood well enough.

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      • #18
        I thought the Beast was just a metaphorical construct. Or is that in Requiem?


        “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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        • #19
          A metaphor for a vampire’s predatory urges.


          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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          • #20
            How did you...

            No it's an actual entity that resides in the body of a vampire.

            Pre-V5, it's an entity that possesses you when you screw up

            V5, it's an entity that possesses you so that you screw up.


            There are various powers that take advantage of it, including one where you can give it to other people.
            Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-01-2020, 05:55 AM.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #21
              the beast isn't exclusive to vampires,
              the beast is in every being,
              it's just wilder in vampires

              the beast is the seat of your passion,
              it's what allows you to stand up and want to do things, have a party, yelling to cheer for your favorite team, beat someone up, or take revenge on someone

              without it, you're hardly better than a walking vegetable

              animalism 3, for example, used to be about shutting down the beast of a mortal to pacify them or render them helpless


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              • #22
                It’s a persons Id? In Freudian terms?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                  the beast isn't exclusive to vampires,
                  the beast is in every being,
                  it's just wilder in vampires

                  the beast is the seat of your passion,
                  it's what allows you to stand up and want to do things, have a party, yelling to cheer for your favorite team, beat someone up, or take revenge on someone

                  without it, you're hardly better than a walking vegetable

                  animalism 3, for example, used to be about shutting down the beast of a mortal to pacify them or render them helpless
                  This is correct. And this is true in V5 as well:

                  Originally posted by Sense the Beast V5 Animalism 1 dot power
                  The vampire can sense the Beast present in mortals, vampires, and other supernaturals, gaining a sense of their nature, hunger, and hostility.

                  Originally posted by Quell the Beast V5 Animalism 3 dot power
                  By locking eyes with a target, the vampire cows their inner Beast into temporary slumber. Mortals affected thus become apathetic, unable to take any actions other than to stay alive, while vampires’ bestial urges temporarily abate, for better or worse.
                  The Beast is the most primal part of human nature. The difference with Vampires is their Beast is often unchained and much stronger than the one residing into human souls.

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                  • #24
                    No, no, no. Stop the Toreador poetry, you're just confusing people.

                    in Vtm the beast isn't your Id on steroids. It's a spirit that takes route in the heart of every vampire. It's a foreign entity that comes with the blood. you could hypothesize the beast is just a grossly mutated aspect of someone's sleeping avatar, or if it's a foreign entity that has fed off you to mold itself; at the end of the day, it's not a fucking metaphore; it's not your character's pent up desires. It's not your first mate that helps you acheive your goals with a firm hand, it's a mutinous high jacker that's looking for an excuse to take the boat.


                    From a meta perspective, sure you can say it is your id. That's poetic, sure. but your character would be a fool to go along with that.
                    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-01-2020, 12:23 PM.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • #25
                      There seems to be a huge divide on this issue. And it doesn’t help that there are two games about vampires and the vampires in both games have Beasts but the Beasts are different so people who aren’t like super familiar with the details of both games might get the two Beasts confused.


                      “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                      • #26
                        I’m more familiar with Masquerade but sometimes I get the rules confused. Like I know Predator’s Taint is Requiem but sometimes I forget the details.


                        “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          at the end of the day, it's not a fucking metaphore; it's not your character's pent up desires. It's not your first mate that helps you acheive your goals with a firm hand,
                          yes, it isn't a metaphore, the beast is a real thing

                          but no, it is an integral part of your personality and your ability to function,
                          devoid of a beast, a human or a vampire are just smart vegetables

                          this isn't poetry, it's canon, v20 canon, and revised canon (and apparently v5 as well)
                          in the description of v20 animalism 5:

                          If the character leaves the target’s presence before
                          the frenzy expends itself, the vampire loses his Beast,
                          perhaps permanently. While no longer vulnerable to
                          frenzy, the character cannot use or regain Willpower
                          and becomes increasingly lethargic. To recover the
                          Beast, he must find the person who now possesses it
                          (who likely isn’t enjoying herself very much) and coax
                          the Beast into its proper vessel. The most effective way
                          to do so is to behave in ways that make the Beast want
                          to return — however, this isn’t a guarantee that it will
                          wish to do so. Alternatively, the character can simply
                          kill the host (thus causing the Beast to return to the
                          vampire immediately).
                          as for the beast being a foreign entity or not is unclear,
                          I'd say it is foreign, the beast-of-war from garou myth,
                          but it remains nonetheless important to any being...unless you fancy the vegetable life (no offense to any vegetables reading this)
                          Last edited by Pleiades; 08-01-2020, 02:23 PM.


                          -

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            No, no, no. Stop the Toreador poetry, you're just confusing people.

                            in Vtm the beast isn't your Id on steroids. It's a spirit that takes route in the heart of every vampire. It's a foreign entity that comes with the blood. you could hypothesize the beast is just a grossly mutated aspect of someone's sleeping avatar, or if it's a foreign entity that has fed off you to mold itself; at the end of the day, it's not a fucking metaphore; it's not your character's pent up desires. It's not your first mate that helps you acheive your goals with a firm hand, it's a mutinous high jacker that's looking for an excuse to take the boat.


                            From a meta perspective, sure you can say it is your id. That's poetic, sure. but your character would be a fool to go along with that.
                            Everyone has a Beast, every mortal has a Beast (which is why vampires can sense and manipulate the Beasts of mortals) Every vampire had a Beast before they were a vampire, back when they were mortal, because mortals have Beasts. So it is a natural condition to humans (insofar as every human having a monstreous creature attached to their soul is natural) and a natural condition to vampires. It's just that the Beast is usually silent and slumbering in mortals but it's awake and active in vampires.

                            Due to the Christian perspective of VtM one could perhaps make links between the Beast and sin with the idea that everyone possess Original Sin (the Beast), but Vampires, due to their existence beyond God's forgiveness have a much more powerful and active Beast.

                            More on topic, every vampire has to keep a tight lock on their Beast. Those who fail to do so end up turning into wrights, insane ravening monsters who need to be put down. While a vampire could "blame their beast" for something they do in frenzy, that's not really a "get out of jail free" card because it shows that the vampire lacks the power to control their Beast and is at danger of eventually becoming a wright. People might look the other way once, but a vampire who gives into Frenzy and the Beast too often is going to very quickly start facing serious repercussions.
                            Last edited by AnubisXy; 08-02-2020, 01:33 PM.

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                            • #29
                              The way I see, vampire powers often work in a very metaphorical way, so vampires being able to manipulate the beast doesn't prove it's a separate creature anymore than vampires getting bonuses from humors proves the middle-ages humor theories to be scientifically correct.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                                I thought the Beast was just a metaphorical construct. Or is that in Requiem?
                                That's Requiem.

                                In Masquerade, the Beast is a specific, individual entity that's fuelled by your base desires and above all else loves to fuck you over. It theoretically wants to get blood and avoid fire, but it's often worse at that than you are. The big theme is loss of control; if the Beast takes over, it's almost exclusively a bad thing that will hurt you, so you need to keep it contained or find ways to negotiate with it (such as Instinct paths) or else it'll ruin everything.

                                In Requiem, the Beast is an individual entity the same way Freud's id or Jung's "shadow" is an individual entity: it's a useful name to give to a part of your own mind, but it's not actually an alien influence in your head. It's part of you, it wants what you want, and it's willing to do anything to get that thing. (It's also what fuels disciplines.) The big theme is the price of power; the Beast pushes you to get what you want and not let anything stand in your way, and doesn't care how much blood ends up on your hands.

                                (This is the take that's supported by most of the books, at least. Different editions muddy the waters to various extents. But the thematics stay the same.)

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