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V5 and a discussion regarding Humanity

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  • V5 and a discussion regarding Humanity

    Ok, I recently began a V5 chronicle and would like to get an opinion from the rest of you.

    So, my chronicle has the following tenets:
    • We Are Not Beasts - Do not kill or maim for pleasure. Control your Hunger. Do not give in to needless cruelty towards the kine.
    • Companionship - Respect your coterie. They are your brothers and sisters of the night, and you only have each other.
    • Thou shalt not harm the innocent - Purity is a commodity that is rare in this world. Tarnishing the purity of childhood (killing or harming children, for example) makes the world a darker place.

    In our previous session, the coterie was attacked by another coterie. At one point, the group had incapacitated one of their opponents, who had dropped into torpor. The Malkavian in the group was the one that made the incapacitating shot, which he scored a messy critical on. He decided that his messy critical would be to unload the clip of his gun into the face of the torporous vampire, which dusted him.

    A few moments later, the group incapacitated a second vampire, knocking him into torpor. The same character rolled a bestial failure on a roll, and he decided that he would drain the torporous vampire. No, he didn't commit diablerie, but he killed the vampire by draining him completely.

    Considering the chronicle tenets, I ruled that the Malkavian violated the tenet "We Are Not Beasts" by cruelly killing two incapacitated enemies and thus incurred a stain on his humanity (keep in mind that he has a Humanity of 8). He is arguing that it does not violate the tenets.

    I'd like to hear opinions.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Raunalyn View Post
    Ok, I recently began a V5 chronicle and would like to get an opinion from the rest of you.

    So, my chronicle has the following tenets:
    • We Are Not Beasts - Do not kill or maim for pleasure. Control your Hunger. Do not give in to needless cruelty towards the kine.

    Kill or maim for pleasure? Nope.
    Control your Hunger? Maybe violated this one, would need more info to make proper assessment. Do convictions negate this, what was his hunger level, etc.
    Give in to needless cruelty towards the kine? Nope, vampires are not kine.

    Originally posted by Raunalyn View Post
    I ruled that the Malkavian violated the tenet "We Are Not Beasts" by cruelly killing two incapacitated enemies and thus incurred a stain on his humanity (keep in mind that he has a Humanity of 8). He is arguing that it does not violate the tenets.

    I'd like to hear opinions.


    He may have gained one based on how your convictions are written but not because he cruelly killed vampires, nothing in your tenets prevents this action.


    Comment


    • #3
      No. Killing them was neither cruel nor needless. Just efficient.


      “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

      Comment


      • #4
        Question. The way you describe it makes it sound like the first kill happened during combat rather than after. Did the "incapacitating shot" end up killing their opponent rather than shooting them dead after they were already down, is that correct?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
          Question. The way you describe it makes it sound like the first kill happened during combat rather than after. Did the "incapacitating shot" end up killing their opponent rather than shooting them dead after they were already down, is that correct?
          The Malkavian's first shot incapacitated the target. He then emptied his entire clip into the face of the incapacitated target.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think your ruling is fine because the player choose to kill the second vampire. You let him choose how the second bestial failure should have happened and his choice was to kill a second time in the span of a few minutes or less and that violates the tenet "Do not kill or maim for pleasure".

            Comment


            • #7
              But was it for pleasure or simply because killing the second vampire was the most efficient way to ensure that the defeated vampire didn’t bother him again?


              “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

              Comment


              • #8
                What is a Humanity 8 character doing getting into vampire gang fights and emptying clips into downed opponents, anyway?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Raunalyn View Post

                  The Malkavian's first shot incapacitated the target. He then emptied his entire clip into the face of the incapacitated target.
                  Ah, got it.

                  Also, I second Matt's question above. Why is a Humanity 8 character literally shooting helpless opponents in the face? Your call sounds reasonable. Perhaps, though, you could give us a quick summary of why your player thinks differently? As in, what's his argument? Unless you feel that would be indulging him too much on this and create further problems.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Okay. I guess if you consider killing a helpless opponent a sin against Humanity then I agree with you.


                    “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I mean, it’s not like it’s a baby or a child or anything. It’s an armed enemy who was tryna kill you. And who now hates you twice as much as before. My characters rarely get involved in combat unless they have to, and when they do they would certainly accept an honorable surrender, but if another vampire’s trying to destroy you and you knock them out it only makes sense to decapitate them before they can get up again.


                      “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                        I mean, it’s not like it’s a baby or a child or anything. It’s an armed enemy who was tryna kill you. And who now hates you twice as much as before. My characters rarely get involved in combat unless they have to, and when they do they would certainly accept an honorable surrender, but if another vampire’s trying to destroy you and you knock them out it only makes sense to decapitate them before they can get up again.
                        Are those characters if yours Humanity 8 vampires, though?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No, but...

                          Ohhhh. I see what you mean. I guess killing a helpless opponent is kinda cold-blooded from a Humanity perspective.

                          But still. There’s nothing in the OP’s Tenets that prohibits it. There is a clause against “cruelty” but is it cruel to kill a helpless opponent? (Not being snarky here. 100% serious.)


                          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And it’s not for pleasure either. It’s for business reasons.


                            “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              When characters lose contol due to something they couldn't possibly forsee, It's wise to be leniant.


                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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