Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The peoples of the Antediluvians

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The peoples of the Antediluvians

    So in the thread "More female Antediluvians" we digressed a bit into a speculation on what peoples the Antediluvians were originally from. Given that we have had a flood of information about truly ancient peoples in the last few years, I thought is was an interesting subject for at least some general musings. So these are my thoughts, with little to support them:

    Most of the true Antediluvians are fifteen thousand years old or more. They generally seem to have originated around the area of the fertile crescent in the middle east, but several of the one with unique disciplines have an "outsider" vibe to them, and having a discipline that no-one else has indicates that some of them may have developed with less influence and information than their brood mates. Thus:

    Haquim (Assamite): Tales of Haquim insists that he was a scholar and a warrior, but not from the First City area. This suggests some specialization in the people he arose from. I'd call him some sort of proto-Natufian, or early Natufian. Maybe the same people who built Göbekli Tepe.

    Ventrue: Is said to be dead, does not really feature prominently in other Clans tales of the ancient nights, and the Ventrue are curiously absent from pre-Roman histories. I suspect there never was a Ventrue Antediluvian and they are a jumped-up bloodline whose elders concocted the tale of a slain Antediluvian. However, "London by Night" flat-out listed "The Ventrue Antediluvian" as Mithras sire (page 104). So at least there was an Antediluvian at that point. Of course some Ventrue may have diablerized another Antediluvian in far-off India or somewhere.
    In any case, from what we know, the Ventrue Antediluvian comes across as the ultimate insider. So I'd say Basal Eurasian from the Ur-Shatt valley. There is some possibility of early ur-civilization there, and it fits the stories well. It would even put Caines library under the rushing waters.

    Lasombra: My feeling here is that the Lasombra Antediluvian was from a people different from the main body if the Antediluvians. It has the "outsider" feel. I'd call it the far-west are of the Western Hunter-Gatherers. Some people ancestral to the adept seafarers that managed to size control of the incoming agriculturalists. If so, it might mean that Lasombra in its mortal days spoke a Vasconic language deeply ancestral to Basque.

    Troile (Brujah): BJD hillariously opines that Troile was a native of Carthage in her mortal life. That is clearly nonsense, she has childer that is much older than Carthage. In fact one is older than Tyre, the people who would thousands of years later go on to found Carthage. Troile is also mentioned in tales of the Second City as a contemporary of Arikel etc. However if we squint very hard at it we can take it as her being from the general area rather than the culture itself. If so, she'd be of the Iberomarusian people.

    Ennoia (Gangrel): One of the outsiders, but one who wanders a lot. I don't think she'd be from the same people as the bulk of the Antediluvians. But she could be from anywhere. There is a line of the Elder Edda that states that Gangrel was from Denmark, and went to the city of immortals for knowledge. However, the Antediluvians are so old that the people who would become ancestral to the Scandinavians were still thousands of years from formation, and the physical land of Denmark itself did not exist when Ennoia was mortal. No way to tell her area of origin. Based on nothing at all, I'd assign her as a descendant of the Mal'ta, making her basal to Scandinavians, Native Americans and Yamnaya.

    The Eldest (Tzimisce): Another outsider. I would peg it as a late survival of the long-extinct lineage of the Oase peoples. Carphatian specimens which were of one of the isolated peoples of the Ice Age. Deeply diverged from neighboring peoples. Notable for a late ingression of Neanderthal which in all probability was not from the same clan of Neanderthals that the rest of us have DNA from.

    Dacian/Zaparathusra (Ravnos): While this Antediluvian has been associated with the Indus Valley Civilization, it was ten thousand year old when that civilization emerged. So its clearly an opportunistic association. I'd guess based on the tales of its eastern origins that it came from the Eastern Hunter-Gatherer groups and came to India ages later. Could have been one of he First City people who got exiled for being criminal and annoying too.

    Absimilliard (Nosferatu): Not described as civilized at all, but a hunter, he was still located not too far away from the First City- I'd guess Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.

    Cappadocious/Sargon (Cappadocian): Deeply associated with Anatolia and interested in the cycle of life and death, I would guess that Sargon came from the people who would go on to become the Early European Farmers, and who make up about a third of the European gene pool.

    Suthek/Set (Setite) : Clearly Egyptian, and clearly much younger than the other Antediluvians. In fact younger than one of Troiles childer.

    Arikel, Malkav, Saulot, (Toreador, Malkavian, Salubri) : There are some uncertainties involved with Arikel who may or may not be the Toreador Antediluvian. But in any case, in my opinion these were most likely natives of the First Citys mortal population. Basal Eurasian from the Ur-Schatt valley again.

    Thats my guesses based on very little WW material anyway.
    Last edited by Trollroot; 07-31-2020, 03:18 PM.

  • #2
    It's almost like the writers just plugged in what ever they thought was cool, rather than doing a deep dive on human history.

    Theoretically if you were to assume that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens, that puts them back around 300k BCE, with Caine and Abel being in the same time slot. So that means Caine sat around for something like 270 thousand or more years to build the first city and embrace his first brood of childer. Of course if we follow this line of merged scientific fact and game lore, that would mean that Caine would be black, and many of the Antediluvians would be like 5' 4" or less in height due to the nutritional issues of switching from a hunter gatherer diet to an early farming diet.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thoth View Post
      It's almost like the writers just plugged in what ever they thought was cool, rather than doing a deep dive on human history.

      Theoretically if you were to assume that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens, that puts them back around 300k BCE, with Caine and Abel being in the same time slot. So that means Caine sat around for something like 270 thousand or more years to build the first city and embrace his first brood of childer. Of course if we follow this line of merged scientific fact and game lore, that would mean that Caine would be black, and many of the Antediluvians would be like 5' 4" or less in height due to the nutritional issues of switching from a hunter gatherer diet to an early farming diet.
      Most of the true Anediluvians are twice as old as farming

      But honestly, I've sometimes thought it might be easier to move VTM onto a fully Abrahamic timeline and para-Ussher chronology.

      But the OP is more for assuming that the Caine and Abel story is one version of the vampiric creation story thas made its way into a kine religous text. Like it did before with Dumuzid and Enkimdu, Emesh and Enten. And after, with Loki and Balder. Currently the Caine and Aber version is dominant because the current crop of active European elders grew up with it as fact, and the European moment in world history..

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

        Most of the true Anediluvians are twice as old as farming

        But honestly, I've sometimes thought it might be easier to move VTM onto a fully Abrahamic timeline and para-Ussher chronology.

        But the OP is more for assuming that the Caine and Abel story is one version of the vampiric creation story thas made its way into a kine religous text. Like it did before with Dumuzid and Enkimdu, Emesh and Enten. And after, with Loki and Balder. Currently the Caine and Aber version is dominant because the current crop of active European elders grew up with it as fact, and the European moment in world history..

        How do you have a proper city without functional agriculture? Even if it is just a simple city state, hunter gather techniques would exhaust the local ecosystems of potential food within a year or two. So we get into this odd logic loop issue that we have a theory of when farming was created, which in turn tells us when the First City could have been created. This is then compounded by the fact that caine didn't embrace the second generation until the First City, which meant the city and by logical extension farming was around before the 3rd generation.

        The issue with using the concept that the storyline has been told and retold for generations and distorted by cultures and social ideas is that vampires from that time period still exist and have the authority to correct the narrative. There are only around 70,000 Cainites in the world, a significant number of which are ancient or were tutored by those who were around when the history was being made. Of course there is always the possibility that some of these elders would modify the history for their own benefit, but there really isn't anything in the history to be worth changing. The closest you could realistically get is that each clan might have its own varient mythology, but if you squint at them the broad strokes are more or less the same.

        Comment


        • #5
          In my games the "deluge" is the effect of what happened after the war between demons and angels ended. That gave birth to the current iteration of reality and only a few remnants of what was before kept existing (some in weird ways, like Enoch in the Shadowlands or Alamut that in truth is a demon Bastion, for example). Humans before the deluge were very different beings (generally more awakened in a world where paradox was basically non existent) than what came after. Our idea of prehistory is factual and it happened but it was also a fabrication of the angels (keep in mind they had control over time so they could rewrite reality, it's what their war with the demons was about after all).

          So to answer your question the "peoples of the Antediluvians" don't really exist anymore. Set had some because they were able to survive the deluge as well and once the current iteration of reality was established they created the kingdom of Egypt that later Set subverted but for most of the others their "people" was the population of Enoch and that is lost to them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Thoth View Post
            How do you have a proper city without functional agriculture? Even if it is just a simple city state, hunter gather techniques would exhaust the local ecosystems of potential food within a year or two. So we get into this odd logic loop issue that we have a theory of when farming was created, which in turn tells us when the First City could have been created. This is then compounded by the fact that caine didn't embrace the second generation until the First City, which meant the city and by logical extension farming was around before the 3rd generation.
            Well, what is a "proper city"? I mean a city by todays standards could obviously not be fed, but what was the standard for a city in 10 000 BC? I'd say you did not need a very large permanent settlement to qualify. Now, there was a reason why I pegged Haquim as Natufian, or proto-Natufian. The Natufians built the first settlements, and places such as Tell es-Sultan constructed walls and towers on a food economy based on livestock and intensive collection. Indicating a social structure, and other entities out there leading to a need for fortifications.

            Also, some areas are richer than others. The Pacific Northwest, and the eastern shores of the Baltic both supported large numbers of people based on the general richness of the area, with renewable fish resources as a part of the calorie management. Monumental architecture got built at Göbekli Tepe long before agriculture.

            I mention the Ur-Shatt as a good potential site for the first city as it was geographically rather close to these developments, had permanent sources of water and may well have been rich enough to support permanent dwellings a earlier than elsewhere.

            Also...either you throw the entire Noddist mythology overboard (in which case, what are you even doing here?) or you have to deal with the fact that there was a first city and there were Antediluvians who are fifteen thousand years old in the WoD.

            Originally posted by Thoth View Post
            The issue with using the concept that the storyline has been told and retold for generations and distorted by cultures and social ideas is that vampires from that time period still exist and have the authority to correct the narrative. There are only around 70,000 Cainites in the world, a significant number of which are ancient or were tutored by those who were around when the history was being made. Of course there is always the possibility that some of these elders would modify the history for their own benefit, but there really isn't anything in the history to be worth changing. The closest you could realistically get is that each clan might have its own varient mythology, but if you squint at them the broad strokes are more or less the same.
            Why on earth would they? Elder vampires are not exactly motivated to run around and make sure the fledgelings have exact information about their own youth. Thats like the exact opposite of how they work. Besides, if the tale is broadly correct, why bother just because its being framed by the religion popular at the moment? Look at Ur-Shulgi. For all his "Renounce all other faiths or perish!" stance, he does not mind if Caine is called Caine, even if there was another name for him when Ur-Shulgi was embraced.

            Comment


            • #7
              I actually have that there was a Deluge in my games. Perhaps not the actual Biblical Flood, but some kind of Cataclysm - the earth changes that Robert E Howard used to explain the end of Hyboria, or Atlantis sinking, or the elves leaving Middle Earth, or the fall of Hyperborea in Hellboy.

              So any attempt to map/match the Antedeluvians come from and historic peoples will fail. Real history, as we know it, is an artifact of the world as it became after the Flood. It has almost no bearing on the pre-Deluge world. The Antedeluvians could have been Nephilim, or a group of Atlantean sorcerers, or cultists of the Black Goddess, or followers of the Titans who dismembered and ate Dionysus, or the last survivors of Sauron's forces. Or something else.

              It works for me. Everyone's tastes are different.

              Now in terms of what the Antedeluvians did after they recovered from the Flood, that's different. This is when we can divide them up.

              Of course, most became the first god-kings of the Mesopotamian city- states before eventually falling into torpor somewhere around the Fertile Crescent. Ravnos made his way east and didn't settle until the Indus Valley Civilization happened, but it was really his childer who became the god kings there since he entered torpor before the cities rose. Set of course made his way to the Nile Valley although the actual vampire known as Set was really his childe. While Brujah moved west to the Phoenician coast where his childer ruled. Cappadocious of course also went to west. Nosferatu and Gangrel eventually split and headed into the wilderness with Gangrel heading more northeast first into Central Asia, and Nosferatu travelling around a lot into Europe and then Africa via Gibraltar (or perhaps it was the other way around?). Toreador eventually made her way to Crete and the Aegean. Lasombra headed south towards Yemen and the Red Sea. Tzimisce went north and went around the Black Sea until we found the Carpathian Basin. Saulot went east, but long after Ravnos did. By 4000 BC, all the Antedeluvians had entered torpor with only a rare few awakening sporadically to terrible portents and omens.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                Now in terms of what the Antedeluvians did after they recovered from the Flood, that's different. This is when we can divide them up.
                We actually know what they did: they were compelled to join their sires and established the Second City. Then after a while they rebelled and killed the second generation, Caine came back and cursed them and the clans were born. Then they went their own separate ways.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                  It's almost like the writers just plugged in what ever they thought was cool, rather than doing a deep dive on human history.

                  Theoretically if you were to assume that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens, that puts them back around 300k BCE, with Caine and Abel being in the same time slot. So that means Caine sat around for something like 270 thousand or more years to build the first city and embrace his first brood of childer. Of course if we follow this line of merged scientific fact and game lore, that would mean that Caine would be black, and many of the Antediluvians would be like 5' 4" or less in height due to the nutritional issues of switching from a hunter gatherer diet to an early farming diet.
                  The Bible is not a good book to take too literally. Specially because Genesis says Adam was made "before any plants germinated".
                  That doesn't quite sound as the sixth day, when man and woman were made....just sayin'
                  Also, Adam may come from "the earth" but could also mean "the blood".

                  Feel free to take my words with a grain of salt, but well, caveat emptor.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are a bit too many fourth-generation Ventrue for there not to have been a true Founder. Interestingly, they concentrate around Europe; Veddartha established the Danava in India, Arakur of Ur in Mesopotamia, and Nefer-meri-Isis roamed Africa, but most of the rest laired in Western or Central Europe. Maybe [Ventru] came from there too? Their oldest childe was supposedly Artemis Orthia, who ruled in Sparta.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
                      There are a bit too many fourth-generation Ventrue for there not to have been a true Founder. Interestingly, they concentrate around Europe; Veddartha established the Danava in India, Arakur of Ur in Mesopotamia, and Nefer-meri-Isis roamed Africa, but most of the rest laired in Western or Central Europe. Maybe [Ventru] came from there too? Their oldest childe was supposedly Artemis Orthia, who ruled in Sparta.
                      Agreed. Unless Alexander committed Diablerie to lower his gen (a distinct possibility), he was supposedly embraced around the 8th century BCE. I'd push him back further since his childer Demetrius was supposedly embraced about the same time (if he were a Phocean settler that founded Massilia/Marsaille) and he's listed as 5th gen.

                      How about Malkav as proto-Indo European? The precursor to Dionysus/Shiva.

                      I think Gangrel as a Proto-Scythian might work, too. Especially with travelling to the East and doing battle with another god named Churnka (Ravnos).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post

                        Agreed. Unless Alexander committed Diablerie to lower his gen (a distinct possibility), he was supposedly embraced around the 8th century BCE. I'd push him back further since his childer Demetrius was supposedly embraced about the same time (if he were a Phocean settler that founded Massilia/Marsaille) and he's listed as 5th gen.

                        How about Malkav as proto-Indo European? The precursor to Dionysus/Shiva.

                        I think Gangrel as a Proto-Scythian might work, too. Especially with travelling to the East and doing battle with another god named Churnka (Ravnos).
                        Good points. Plus, there are Antonius and Erik Eigermann, who are supposedly broodmates and both of them Ventrue of the fourth generation. It's not totally clear whether they originally came from Gaul (the region they first became known) or arrived there later.

                        Oh, another thing. Set was also the God of foreigners. It might not mean anything, but, well, perhaps it does.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                          The Bible is not a good book to take too literally. Specially because Genesis says Adam was made "before any plants germinated".
                          That doesn't quite sound as the sixth day, when man and woman were made....just sayin'
                          Also, Adam may come from "the earth" but could also mean "the blood".

                          Feel free to take my words with a grain of salt, but well, caveat emptor.

                          Personally I still go with the notion that the Exalted setting is the prehistory of the WoD as intended back in first edition, so its only fair to give some leeway on the origin stories.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                            Also...either you throw the entire Noddist mythology overboard (in which case, what are you even doing here?) or you have to deal with the fact that there was a first city and there were Antediluvians who are fifteen thousand years old in the WoD.
                            Or you go with the fact that first edition Exalted was the prehistory setting for WoD. This then ties into the Kindred of the East concept of the Wheel of Ages and how we are about to enter the sixth age, after which we return to the first age which would be the exalted setting again. That makes Cain some sort of Abyssal Half-caste at Essence three and the Antediluvians something like Essence 2 Half-Castes?

                            Alternatively the notion that since mages can cure vampirism with modern levels of magic, an arch mage in prehistory could have easily created the vampirism curse and placed it on Caine or the antediluvians.

                            There are tons of options just based off of WoD lore alone, but for the most part this post was to deal with the IRL peoples and backgrounds of the antediluvians which means we just kind of have to deal with the fact that they are going to be older than most lore accounts for.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thoth View Post


                              Personally I still go with the notion that the Exalted setting is the prehistory of the WoD as intended back in first edition, so its only fair to give some leeway on the origin stories.
                              Fair. I don't, but that's mostly because i like to mess around with some stealth pseudo-lovecraftian overtones like Gulfora's telling of her origins, Baali myths or Garou stories of the Worm King in the Past Lives adventure.

                              And I did once make a chronicle were the PCs got an epic mind screw out of some apocrypha....

                              "Wait, wait, if Adam might mean not only earth but 'Blood' and Eve, not life but 'Evening', they were made to guard the Garden of Eden before there were beasts."

                              "And that on itself was even before there was man or woman...."

                              "Are we reading this right, is this translation for real?!"

                              "Looks so. Adam & Eve being some kind of pre-human thing that god later exiled and would mix up with humanity through their children. Ok, that is weird."

                              "And with names that really scream VAMPIRE to boot. That's not weird, that's some cosmic horror messed up reveal. Still trying to process that crap."

                              "I don't know if i want to break these tables and forget i ever read such a thing - or give them to some Noddists and let half the fanatics in the city kill each other over it."

                              "I vote for option 1 - after we test option 2."

                              "Deal."

                              Fun times.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X