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The peoples of the Antediluvians

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  • #16
    Wow! I wish I had something interesting to contribute to this discussion but I don’t. It is nice to know that someone else agrees with me that Sutekh (whatever their gender) is younger than the other Antediluvians.


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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    • #17
      Çatalhöyük makes for an example of a city that existed without farming, and probably predated it, but this is an extraordinarily rare outlier.

      The proto-city was basically a glorified trading camp on the outskirts of Mount Hasan. Inhabitants are thought to have gathered obsidian from the volcanic rock and shaped it into tools which they would have traded to nearby hunter-gatherer tribes in exchange for food.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Reasor View Post
        Çatalhöyük makes for an example of a city that existed without farming, and probably predated it, but this is an extraordinarily rare outlier.

        The proto-city was basically a glorified trading camp on the outskirts of Mount Hasan. Inhabitants are thought to have gathered obsidian from the volcanic rock and shaped it into tools which they would have traded to nearby hunter-gatherer tribes in exchange for food.
        What's your evidence for it predating agriculture. There's evidence for agriculture and domestication of animals around the city.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87...C3%BCk#Economy

        It's a really interesting city, since how do you build a city before a lot of the concepts we think of had been laid out? They didn't even really have streets and just built the houses right up against each other. This meant you had to climb a ladder to get in and out of your home and walk across the rooftops of the city to get around. It must have been absolutely sweltering in those apartments.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
          There are a bit too many fourth-generation Ventrue for there not to have been a true Founder. Interestingly, they concentrate around Europe; Veddartha established the Danava in India, Arakur of Ur in Mesopotamia, and Nefer-meri-Isis roamed Africa, but most of the rest laired in Western or Central Europe. Maybe [Ventru] came from there too? Their oldest childe was supposedly Artemis Orthia, who ruled in Sparta.
          Unless the Ventrue got together and cooperated to make sure there were a number of fourth generation Ventrue around, by victimizing some of other clan back in the Iron Age. Of course, since WW has flat-out listed "The Ventrue Antediluvian" as Mithras sire, there definitly was a Ventrue Antediluvian around at the start of the Iron Age. That does not guarantee that he was not sired at a lower generation and ate his way up.

          It'd put the Ventrue acceptance of the Tremere much later in an interesting light. Who knows what information the Tremere might have unearthened when they were researching Antediluvians.
          Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
          Oh, another thing. Set was also the God of foreigners. It might not mean anything, but, well, perhaps it does.
          Normally yes, but Sets life is really well attested, he even has a close living relative knocking around. Everyone, both the Setites and the groups who hate them agree on the basics there.

          Originally posted by Thoth View Post
          There are tons of options just based off of WoD lore alone, but for the most part this post was to deal with the IRL peoples and backgrounds of the antediluvians which means we just kind of have to deal with the fact that they are going to be older than most lore accounts for.
          This really. If you want to run a thread for Exalted being the prehistory of the WoD, thats all good but it doesn't fit the premise oft his thread.

          Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
          How about Malkav as proto-Indo European? The precursor to Dionysus/Shiva.

          I think Gangrel as a Proto-Scythian might work, too. Especially with travelling to the East and doing battle with another god named Churnka (Ravnos).
          Proto-Indo Europeans were unfortunately a mixture of mostly Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Eastern Hunter-Gatherers. Generally the evidence for them go back to the Anatolian languages split off, mid-fourth millennium BC. So the Antediluvians would have been almost ten thousand years old by then. Schytians were much later, nearly three thousand years later.

          This is why I think it is a pity that the dates have been pushed so far back, it is hunter gatherers all over back then. Starting the chronology at the dawn of agriculture and cities might have worked better

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          • #20
            Most everything I recall reading about the antediluvians' age puts their embraces (well, except for Set's, if he was embraced) at about 8,000 BCE, not 13,000 BCE. The only source I recall for the earlier date arises from Nights of Prophecy and that one writer mistaking Baba Yaga's age as 5,000 years rather than 7,000.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

              Unless the Ventrue got together and cooperated to make sure there were a number of fourth generation Ventrue around, by victimizing some of other clan back in the Iron Age. Of course, since WW has flat-out listed "The Ventrue Antediluvian" as Mithras sire, there definitly was a Ventrue Antediluvian around at the start of the Iron Age. That does not guarantee that he was not sired at a lower generation and ate his way up.
              Artemis may have ruled Sparta but she was embraced in the Second City. She's also said to have been Ventru's first childe. The chances of her sire being a higher generation that ate his way up at the time of the second city is pretty much nonexistent.

              To the OP that said Ventrue mehuselahs were absent from pre-Roman histories. Rome became a thing around 753 BC. I just pointed out about Artemis being far older than even Greece. Arakur of Ur died 1100 years prior to the founding of Sparta. The city of Ur was founded around 3800 BC and Arakur was said to be the god of the city. So it's likely he was around during or before the founding. Mithras was embraced some 300 years before Sparta.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                This really. If you want to run a thread for Exalted being the prehistory of the WoD, thats all good but it doesn't fit the premise oft his thread.
                Yes and no. You tend to be alternating between which parts of lore you want and which parts of IRL history you want and ignoring the rest, as such Exalted makes as much sense as any other lore component you have brought up. It's not that much different from having to deal with prehistory arch mages, alamut being a demon fortress, or the Dragon Kings which eventually became the Mokole.

                Every splat references an unspecified ancient time when x,y,z took place. For Demon it was the War against the angels, for Werewolf it was the time when they chose to cull humanity, for vampire it was the flood, the first and second city. But strangely enough few of these things line up well with actual history or each other. The oWoD at this point is one huge cluster of kitchen sink timeline stuck in a retcon blender.

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                • #23
                  Just for input - technicly the antedeluvians wouldnt even need to be homo sapiens sapiens. Physical differences between the various breeds of human were pretty small, if youd took a neanderthal and put him into modern clothing, he wouldnt stand out at all and look just like another guy. indeed many modern dy peoples are the result of interbreeding between human species - europeans have 1-5% neandertal in them, asians have some denisovan in them. And there were a lot more human species around that didnt make it to modern times at all.

                  That said - would Kain have been black? Possibly. He could also have been of arabic / egyptian decent or, given that the indoeuropeans settled india, europe and indeed persia, he could also have been white. if we go out of africa hypothesis black is very plausible, but then there is the out of asia thesis as well, and the out of europe thesis. we know for sure that neanderthals were white and european and around before homo sapiens - so its really up to you. But again, i dont think vampires would care at all and i doubt Kain or the antes would show up in a campaign either

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                    Proto-Indo Europeans were unfortunately a mixture of mostly Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Eastern Hunter-Gatherers. Generally the evidence for them go back to the Anatolian languages split off, mid-fourth millennium BC. So the Antediluvians would have been almost ten thousand years old by then. Schytians were much later, nearly three thousand years later.

                    This is why I think it is a pity that the dates have been pushed so far back, it is hunter gatherers all over back then. Starting the chronology at the dawn of agriculture and cities might have worked better
                    Ya they may not literally be from those peoples if you're going for the whole first city around 10,000BCE or earlier, but could be influences on those cultures. Or they could come from one of the groups that eventually contributed to the PIE peoples later.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

                      Of course, since WW has flat-out listed "The Ventrue Antediluvian" as Mithras sire, there definitly was a Ventrue Antediluvian around at the start of the Iron Age. That does not guarantee that he was not sired at a lower generation and ate his way up.
                      I am pretty sure "who sired Mithras?", and "what is his generation?" are Lore bits that many on the forum like to discuss... alot. "The Fall of London" (I think I am quoting the right source) implies that Mithras was sired as a 5th Gen childe of Verdatha. The slaying of the Bull is symbolic of the Toreador Methuselah he diablerized to achieve 4th Gen. Just another piece of in character knowledge to Obscure Mithras origins.

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