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destruction rates for vampires per age category

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  • destruction rates for vampires per age category

    What is the average destruction rate for vampires (of any causes) for each age group? It is OK to give a range, and to distinguish different rates between sects and clans.

    I am very interested in hearing everyone's opinions as I think a lot can be justified given people's assumptions about the setting.

    Fledglings: I think this is quite high. Not every person is cut out to be a vampire and can make the transition. I think a high number of these are destroyed by their sires before they are even released (and if so, they don't count against the Prince permitting them to embrace, they get to do it again to find a childe who can hack it). Others end up destroying themselves by walking into the sun, or fall prey to hunters or supernatural predators. I think perhaps anywhere from 20-50%. Higher rate of destruction in the Sabbat than Camarilla. Varies wildly between clans.

    Neonates: These guys have made it to being released which means they are able to live as vampires. Unfortunately, now they need to survive against other vampires, as well as other creatures, on their own. They also have to survive a lot longer than Fledglings to "age out" of this group. 100 years is a long time. I think after all the causes are out there, it's at least 50% destruction rate. Again, much higher in the Sabbat than Camarilla. Anarchs are also destroyed at a much higher rate. Not as much variation between clans at this point, but there are probably two general tiers of differing survival rates.

    Ancillae: These guys are the survivors. Unfortunately for them, they're also generally responsible for carrying out the elders' wishes, and still need to be on the frontlines of things. Still, I think they have much better survival rates over all than the younger folks. It just seems higher because ancillae are almost always recognized by name, so when they fall it is noticed. The vast majority of fledglings and neonates don't get noticed when they're destroyed. Maybe 25% in the 200-300 years it takes to age out. I don't think there is much variation between clans at this point. But the Sabbat are supposed to have very little ancilla. I think that's mostly because few neonates make it this far.

    Elders are a special category because they can be so for so long. I think in any given century, the survival rate is quite good. Maybe only 5-10% destroyed. The problem is that elders can exist theoretically forever, so they keep getting dwindled. After a thousand years, that 95% success rate means less than 60% of elders have made it. After two thousand years, it's around 35%. After 4000 years it's around 12%. If it is 90% survival every century, those numbers fall to 35%, 13%, and less than 2%.

    I think the numbers for elders get skewed though, because many elders fall into voluntarily torpor at some point. So they drop out of vampire society and are effectively "dead", but who knows when they'll wake up?

  • #2
    Isolation counts as a survival technique. It works for locusts.

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    • #3
      Ya, the mortality rate for the young is probably pretty high. A huge amount probably can't deal with the whole drinking blood to survive and being damned and just greet the sun. It's probably not as many as in earlier time periods, since there's a lot more people who aren't religious today, so the whole damned thing doesn't carry as much weight as it used to. Another big chunk would screw up somehow and be offed by their sire or the Cam for traditions violations. Not too mention how many shovelheads eat it their first night as a vampire in the Sabbat. Then there's also feeding screw ups. As my group's learned, you might be more badass than your average mortal, but when they outnumber you it can spell big time trouble. The fledgling who thinks they're hot shit now and can deal with a group of mortals is in for a surprise. It's probably higher than 50% who don't make it past fledgling.

      Once you get more settled into the lifestyle of preying on humans, mistakes become rarer, you always have an escape route and you have the power to back it up when things do go wrong. The rest of the numbers you gave are probably about right.

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      • #4
        I'll post something more substantive in a day or three, but for now I just want to say thank you for posting this. Ruminations and speculation about vampire ecology -- and other pseudo-academic exercises like this -- are one of the main reasons why I joined these boards in the first place.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          Fledglings: I think this is quite high. Not every person is cut out to be a vampire and can make the transition. I think a high number of these are destroyed by their sires before they are even released (and if so, they don't count against the Prince permitting them to embrace, they get to do it again to find a childe who can hack it). Others end up destroying themselves by walking into the sun, or fall prey to hunters or supernatural predators. I think perhaps anywhere from 20-50%. Higher rate of destruction in the Sabbat than Camarilla. Varies wildly between clans.
          nah, that would be closer to 90% in the modern nights,

          and I disagree with the prince allowing you to re-embrace for free,
          unless you are some kind of very old vampire that doesn't need the prince's permission, the prince alllowing you to "replace" your failed embrace would mean they're either expecting more favours from you or they are unaware of the embrace,
          the latter would make them a rather weak prince, one that is likely to get ashed soon


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

            nah, that would be closer to 90% in the modern nights,

            and I disagree with the prince allowing you to re-embrace for free,
            unless you are some kind of very old vampire that doesn't need the prince's permission, the prince alllowing you to "replace" your failed embrace would mean they're either expecting more favours from you or they are unaware of the embrace,
            the latter would make them a rather weak prince, one that is likely to get ashed soon
            Except for Ventrue. The most of those keep their embraces hidden for some decades until they think they are showable to society and then show the prince for the first time their child and the rest of the Ventrue. Then after all the ventrue said what mistakes it maid, it is put back into hiding (unless the sire thought he fucked to much up and destroy it) and let it out again once they think they are suitable for sociity.


            As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
            First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
            Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Koronus View Post

              Except for Ventrue. The most of those keep their embraces hidden for some decades until they think they are showable to society and then show the prince for the first time their child and the rest of the Ventrue. Then after all the ventrue said what mistakes it maid, it is put back into hiding (unless the sire thought he fucked to much up and destroy it) and let it out again once they think they are suitable for sociity.
              you still need permission,
              if your illegal embrace is found out, you'll be sanctioned
              if your illegal embrace is presented to the prince, you'll be sanctioned

              fortunately, princes usually allow you to get a permission for embrace which you can then use whenever you feel like it,

              so, as long as you have that permission, you can keep your embrace secret all you want,
              but don't expect the prince to not keep tabs on you and your kid,
              the prince still has to enforce the traditions on vampires in the city,
              and your childe, no matter how secret, is no exception,
              and as long as the childe hasn't been presented to the prince, the sire is held accountable for their mistakes


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              • #8
                I suspect in many cities the sabbat elders encourage a high ancillae mortality rate. Between more dangerous mission assignments and being attractive monomancy targets those that remain alive frequently turn against the sect's elders and lose.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #9
                  Well the unspoken reason that Ventrue hide their embraces for long periods of time is they want their progeny to be conservative, cautious, and unemotional. Everything that makes children annoying is doubly annoying to the Ventrue, so they want their progeny to only be seen in public once they are utterly stiff. They aren't doing it to hide creating progeny from the Prince, as doing so is both dangerous and lacking in decorum and respect for the rules.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                    nah, that would be closer to 90% in the modern nights,

                    and I disagree with the prince allowing you to re-embrace for free
                    That is certainly possible, but if something like 90% of fledglings don't make it to being released (your scenario), I think the Prince would generate a lot of unnecessary anger if they punish failures that much and ask for more favors to simply produce one childe that is actually released as a neonate. And assuming there are certain clans more likely to experience problems with their new fledglings (like Malkavians because who knows how bad the derangement will be), it would particularly punish those clans harder.

                    So in the end I think a standard of only counting childer that make it to being released is the better one.

                    If the destruction of fledglings were much, much lower, then the Prince could make the argument that a failure was due to the actions or inabilities of the sire, and it wouldn't destabilize things much. But at 90%, this affects almost everyone, and I think it would cause lots of problems for the Prince to be too greedy.

                    The Prince might demand reasonable evidence like proof of destruction in order to make sure someone isn't secretly using the policy as a means to sire more childer. Or that there is only a limited number of retries (say two or three times).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                      That is certainly possible, but if something like 90% of fledglings don't make it to being released (your scenario), I think the Prince would generate a lot of unnecessary anger if they punish failures that much and ask for more favors to simply produce one childe that is actually released as a neonate. And assuming there are certain clans more likely to experience problems with their new fledglings (like Malkavians because who knows how bad the derangement will be), it would particularly punish those clans harder.

                      So in the end I think a standard of only counting childer that make it to being released is the better one.

                      If the destruction of fledglings were much, much lower, then the Prince could make the argument that a failure was due to the actions or inabilities of the sire, and it wouldn't destabilize things much. But at 90%, this affects almost everyone, and I think it would cause lots of problems for the Prince to be too greedy.

                      The Prince might demand reasonable evidence like proof of destruction in order to make sure someone isn't secretly using the policy as a means to sire more childer. Or that there is only a limited number of retries (say two or three times).
                      to be more specific, 90% death rate in the modern nights due to the frequency of sect wars, lupine raids and resurgence of imbued in revised, and the SI in v5

                      if memory serves me right, Princes usually ignored illegal embraces and "mass embraces" during war.
                      at least, until the dust settled (though I doubt the prince would mind a few illegal embraces, the few that survived, sticking around after the war),

                      so, in this case, I'd agree with you, the Prince would have to compromise,
                      but there's only so much compromise a prince can afford before their city turns into a pseudo-anarch state or, worse, a pseudo-sabbat state where embrace regulations are lax, and youngsters aren't held accountable for masquerade breaches

                      considering the sabbat is still the losing sect, it's safe to assume the camarilla ways, no matter how restrictive, are still the right ways
                      Last edited by Pleiades; 08-04-2020, 04:19 AM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        I suspect in many cities the sabbat elders encourage a high ancillae mortality rate. Between more dangerous mission assignments and being attractive monomancy targets those that remain alive frequently turn against the sect's elders and lose.
                        doubtful,
                        ancillae are already rare in the sect, and the elders need them,

                        while elders would definitely arrange the death of troublesome ones on occasion,
                        "encouraging" high mortality rates is another story, one that would hurt them more than benefit them

                        there are better ways to keep ancillae in line anyway,
                        the vinculum being the best option, elders usually have the necessary connections to arrange certain ancillae to be vinculumed to them,
                        or they could just railroad the ancillae with pointless work to prevent them from gaining fame and support,
                        or just give them enough reward for their work that they don't require more

                        this is canon btw, Archons and Templars (revised), well...not canon anymore

                        outside of that, you can make up your own methods to keep the ancillae in line (path of enlightenment, staining their reputation, taking support roles like Priscus etc)


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                        • #13
                          There is undoubtedly going to be a lot of variance based on people's perception of the setting. For example, my take on VtM is that killing a vampire of the same sect is incredibly rare, because even the freshest, shittiest fledgeling represents years of someone's effort and passion. Ghouls are expendable. Mortal mercenaries are expendable. Vampires are rare and precious and killing someone is a declaration of war against their sire and however many allies the sire has.

                          But overall, I would split vampire mortality into two distinct categories with two distinct primary causes of death:
                          1. Young vampires, who die because they can't cope with a vampire lifestyle, or their sire is toxic or they make hunting mistakes.
                          2. Old vampires, who die because the feeding landscape around them has suddenly and irreversibly changed. Maybe a war started and your town has suddenly been wiped out. Maybe the Spanish Inquisition has begun. Maybe there's a plague. Maybe there's a cold war and everyone's on the lookout for anyone acting weird.

                          Ventrue as a clan are especially sensitive to the mortal shifts, and I imagine have the fewest elders of any clan. Professions die out, ethnic makeups change, phenotypes alter over generations. Romans, persians, mongols, british roll into town and drastically reduce the number of blue/green/brown eyed people in the populace. Once there was a time when feeding on the priests of Perun was a viable lifestyle, and then Rus converted to Christianity and all those Ventrue fucking starved.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            There is undoubtedly going to be a lot of variance based on people's perception of the setting. For example, my take on VtM is that killing a vampire of the same sect is incredibly rare, because even the freshest, shittiest fledgeling represents years of someone's effort and passion. Ghouls are expendable. Mortal mercenaries are expendable. Vampires are rare and precious and killing someone is a declaration of war against their sire and however many allies the sire has.

                            But overall, I would split vampire mortality into two distinct categories with two distinct primary causes of death:
                            1. Young vampires, who die because they can't cope with a vampire lifestyle, or their sire is toxic or they make hunting mistakes.
                            2. Old vampires, who die because the feeding landscape around them has suddenly and irreversibly changed. Maybe a war started and your town has suddenly been wiped out. Maybe the Spanish Inquisition has begun. Maybe there's a plague. Maybe there's a cold war and everyone's on the lookout for anyone acting weird.

                            Ventrue as a clan are especially sensitive to the mortal shifts, and I imagine have the fewest elders of any clan. Professions die out, ethnic makeups change, phenotypes alter over generations. Romans, persians, mongols, british roll into town and drastically reduce the number of blue/green/brown eyed people in the populace. Once there was a time when feeding on the priests of Perun was a viable lifestyle, and then Rus converted to Christianity and all those Ventrue fucking starved.
                            Ah no it is possible for Ventrue to reshape their feeding flaw. For that they need to spend their last blood point in a night for awakening and then go to whole night without feeding and then on the end of the night the first person they feed on is their new person of interest.


                            As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                            First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                            Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Koronus View Post

                              Ah no it is possible for Ventrue to reshape their feeding flaw. For that they need to spend their last blood point in a night for awakening and then go to whole night without feeding and then on the end of the night the first person they feed on is their new person of interest.
                              This might be RAW, but I resent it. You don't get mulligans on a curse. Food ran out? Tough.

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