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destruction rates for vampires per age category

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  • #31
    The Lasombra's Clanbook does give an attrition rate for Lasombras.


    P45

    Most new Lasombra don’t survive. By making it this far you’ve already beaten the odds, to some degree, but never for a moment think that your existence
    is now secure.
    More than half of the kine we choose to Embrace fail to survive their testing period. They despair and commit suicide, or break under the strain, or survive but show that they’re crippled by unworthy personality traits. At least one in a hundred, and sometimes more than that, fail to survive the Embrace itself, either simply dying or emerging so totally mindless and compulsive that they must be destroyed immediately.
    So of a thousand mortals who seemed worthy after initial investigation, we now have about 450 to 500. Look around you, and notice that where there were ten of you on that first night, now there are only eight. We lose ten to twenty percent of new recruits in the training interval before formal acceptance into the Sabbat. In times of crisis, the percentage can double or even triple, and it’s never much less than ten percent. Too many new vampires retain more humanity than is good for them. That gets us down to perhaps 350 to 450 of the original thousand.
    In the next five years, experience says, at least half of you will have gone to your respective unmarked graves. You will perish in battle, or offend your superiors and warrant judgment by the Courts of Blood or the bishopric. Some of you will fall in Monomacy. Some of you will destroy yourselves in accidents. One of you may attempt to join the antitribu, and may even survive to do so. If more than seven or less than three of you stand together five years from now, you will be a most unusual pack indeed. Of our initial thousand, as few as 200, or as many as 300, survive. Those of you who make it to five years will continue to face challenges. Of the five or so of you likely to last that long, at least one and perhaps as many as three will perish in the next five years. The pace of this
    brutal winnowing slows further and further for those of you who endure. Another halving takes place between 10 and 25 years, another between 25 and 50, another between 50 and 100. Your instructors and I face the same challenges. Perhaps one of you will win the right from a Court of Blood to destroy me and enrich your standing in the ladder of generations. Perhaps then
    in turn one of your current peers will win the right to destroy you

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    • #32
      I have a very simple view that each age category gets less and less likely to destruction but getting to the final age category is almost impossible.

      If you reach Methuselah status, being destroyed is almost impossible.

      Marcus Vitel took dozens of dragon breath blasts to the fire and was stabbed with the Ainkurn Sword. It turned out it was just a shadow copy.

      It's why I hope Matthew Dawkins reverses the death of Mictlantecuhtli and possibly Tiamat.

      There's almost no way in hell a bunch of Anarchs took out even sleeping 4th generation vampires. I also liked the implication that Baga Yaga survived.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #33
        Before you are presented to others, your sire is free to kill you, and you don't count against his request to embrace. - How I imagine most princes interpret things.

        Undead rabbit
        While the Lasombra no-doubt are going to have one of the highest rates of dead childer, that's a pep-talk; it's propaganda, and can hardly be considered a definitive source for Lasombra attrition rates.



        Funny enough I imagine their Rivals, the Ventrue, probably have the lowest possible attrition rates among the clans; Pier reviewed selections for a limited number of slots, heavy education, potentially 50 years of patience while you work things out, chance of a complete mind-wipe or pre-embrace murder if for whatever reason you aren't good enough, (generally speaking) a highly supportive clan environment, and you're neither saddled with the looks of the nosferatu or the workload of the Tremere.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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        • #34
          I actually think fledgling death would be lower in modern times, simply because the blood is thin enough that most can drink animal blood. There's really no reason for a blood potency 1 character to go around drinking humans. If you're drinking humans at blood potency 1, it's because you are powerful enough that that deliciousness is worth the risk. Back when vampires were born with blood potency 3+, that would not have been an option.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
            I actually think fledgling death would be lower in modern times, simply because the blood is thin enough that most can drink animal blood. There's really no reason for a blood potency 1 character to go around drinking humans. If you're drinking humans at blood potency 1, it's because you are powerful enough that that deliciousness is worth the risk. Back when vampires were born with blood potency 3+, that would not have been an option.
            I think it goes beyond deliciousness. It's an actual addiction.

            1. It's better than sex
            2. It's better than heroin
            3. Animals are less easy to come by in the big city.

            How many people will drink and even kill as a vampire just because it feels good? Probably most vampires. To feed on animal blood, which even if you're a 13th generation loser, tastes bland and appetizing at best, requires a strong moral conviction.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #36
              My rule of thumb is that the first decade of undeath is the first hurdle, which most fledgelings don't clear. The myriad pitfalls of Kindred society---offend the wrong Elder and you're done---combined with the personal horror of coming to grips with what you are, mean most young Kindred meet final death either by their own hand or someone else's. Past that initial culling, most Kindred find a niche and manage to survive for decades at least. Hunters, rival predators, and the myriad other denizens of the World of Darkness always present a risk, but Kindred who survive the first decade outside their Sire's tutelage generally have their shit on lock and know how to avoid fatal mishap. The destruction of an Ancilla, let alone an Elder, is an event which makes the whole city at least sit up and take notice. Of course, who's an Ancilla and who's an Elder varies widely depending on region. On the West Coast, a vampire just 50 years dead is a serious player, and one a century dead may call themselves an Elder. In the Old World, the bar is much higher. In a city of real power players like London or Milan, a century-old Kindred is lightly regarded and their unlife held far cheaper.

              Obviously, I'm speaking from a Camarilla perspective. In the Sabbat, the attrition rate is much higher, though Shovelheads aren't even treated as "real" Cainites. While the Camarilla isn't really less Darwinian, it works much slower. Rivalries within the Sabbat tend to bear out much more quickly, either through Monomacy or through the tradition of sending disfavored packs out on suicide missions.

              It's impossible to judge how many truly ancient Methuselahs there are. They spend centuries in torpor, separated by time and distance and layers of opaque machinations from the waves of Kindred Society. The tier of Elders below them, still powerful beings who measure their age in centuries, are far more frequently undone by their rivals than reach this plateau, however.
              Last edited by Ventrue Busboy; 04-10-2021, 03:45 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                I actually think fledgling death would be lower in modern times, simply because the blood is thin enough that most can drink animal blood. There's really no reason for a blood potency 1 character to go around drinking humans. If you're drinking humans at blood potency 1, it's because you are powerful enough that that deliciousness is worth the risk. Back when vampires were born with blood potency 3+, that would not have been an option.
                Meta I know but literally every generation could drink animal blood pre-v5, and, well, that's a 4:1 ruling before we include dark ages games. You should also note that a thousand of years ago, putting no dots into generation meant that instead of starting at generation 13 you'd start at... generation 12. So, perhaps, a thousand years before then you might start at gene 11. At 1000bc, we're now talking gen 10, and anyone who puts five dots in is a 5th gen. This is of course assuming that this is a linear development; it's probably not. As in the DA, being of the 13th gen was considered a flaw worth points, you could probably still buy a few points of flaw as generation.

                Am I the only one that gets iffy about people using V5 mechanics for the rest of VTM? like, clearly vampires didn't have the problems V5 vampires have, or they would've been wiped out long ago. Blood potency over 5 makes you an unplayable wreck at the mercy of the Beast. You can't survive thousands of years on that. V5's system only functions under the assumption that vampires have been changed in the past decade, it doesn't retroactively work.


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post


                  Am I the only one that gets iffy about people using V5 mechanics for the rest of VTM? like, clearly vampires didn't have the problems V5 vampires have, or they would've been wiped out long ago. Blood potency over 5 makes you an unplayable wreck at the mercy of the Beast. You can't survive thousands of years on that. V5's system only functions under the assumption that vampires have been changed in the past decade, it doesn't retroactively work.
                  It does sound hard to believe that Brujah could have been a clan of philosophers back when their rage was so much greater. Though not all clan banes are created equal. The Nosferatu bane doesn't really scale much. Once you are ugly enough to be attacked on sight, getting even uglier doesn't matter much.



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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                    It does sound hard to believe that Brujah could have been a clan of philosophers back when their rage was so much greater. Though not all clan banes are created equal. The Nosferatu bane doesn't really scale much. Once you are ugly enough to be attacked on sight, getting even uglier doesn't matter much.


                    There's really no correlation between being a philosopher and keeping your emotions in check.

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                    • #40
                      We're not talking about getting shouty here. We're talking about slaughtering a tavern because someone said the wrong thing about Socrates.

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                      • #41
                        The original reason I made the first post was because I think this is something that helps the ST run the setting. It is something I feel can be easily overlooked while running the game, but adds a lot to it.

                        For example, if there is a significant number of vampires that never become neonates and are destroyed while fledglings, it helps set the mood of the game. The players know their PCs succeeded in ways other new embraces did not. It also provides the ST with any number of plots that might not be appropriate for released Kindred. One thing I like to run is for the new PCs in one of their first games is to help someone hunt down an errant fledgling so the sire can destroy her (for any number of reasons - deteriorating humanity, failure to be able to feed on their own, inability to master Disciplines, violating the Masquerade, etc.) I find this helps creates a mentality in the PCs to better follow the Masquerade and really defines the setting. So the assumptions of whether 10%, 50%, or 90% of such fledglings are destroyed, creates really different tones on what one you picked.

                        It also lets me know that a significant number of NPCs might need to be "recycled" during the game to help note the passage of time. I take an NPC off the board and replace the NPC with another. I don't even need to explain why sometimes because maybe nobody knows. It could be the NPC went to another city, but more likely a Lupine or hunter destroyed him, or perhaps even another vampire. But the simple fact that someone is gone and eventually a new neonate is there helps define the setting. I also found that doing this often creates an interest in the PCs to get to learn the the NPCs than before.

                        At times, I don't even need to come up with a "new" NPC as the players knew absolutely nothing about that character's background. But rather than having that character gone to waste, I just rename the character and slightly update the back story (new sire, maybe new generation). "Bob" is now dead, but since no PC ever bothered to learn anything about Bob, there's no reason I have to come up with a new backstory for the new character. When "Joe" shows up, I just give Joe the old back story for Bob. So it's not even a hard switch to make. Obviously, it's best to do this with the "disposable" NPCs of the setting rather than anyone critical to the city.

                        Using the original Chicago characters as an example, I wouldn't do this to key characters like Maldavis, Juggler, the Primogen, etc. But I could easily replace less important (and more generic) characters like Genghis, Damien, Gordon Keaton, Dickie, Rose, Paula and Ben Smith, Nathaniel, Elucid, Schumpeter, etc. There are some interesting things in their backgrounds, but if the PCs never bothered to learn them in the first place, I can easily just change the backstory. Damien, rather than being the secret childe of Critias, just becomes some random Brujah with an unknown sire. While the replacement "Gabriel" is the secret childe of Critias. (This assumes, of course, that the PCs never interacted enough with Damien to learn of his potent blood or become interested in his secret sire. If they did, I'd just kill off some other character they never interacted with.)

                        I do this because of pure laziness. While I want to show significant turnover, I don't want to come up with entirely new original backstories, or to lose the interesting aspects of previous characters from the game. The TV show Babylon 5 did something similar as actors left and new ones joined. Binge watching the series makes it very obvious that the stories of the main characters were passed on to the new character played by a new actor, despite some significant, but superficial changes to the new character's back story and personality.

                        For a long time, I didn't do this. NPCs didn't die unless the PCs did something because I didn't want to create new characters. But as I grew dissatisfied with such a static setting, I eventually gave myself permission to recycle certain characters in order to create the illusion of change, but keep work for me at a reasonable level.

                        I wanted to crowdsource to determine if people's thoughts on percentages matched mine, or if their expectations were wildly different. That would tell me if I was meeting the expectations of the player base, as I didn't want to use numbers that my own players might think were very wrong.

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