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  • My problem with necromancers

    My problem with necromancers is that they're too cut off with the rest of vampire society. Now, on an individual level, this works; necromancy is a Discipline for corpse-fucking freaks who've decided they're going to spend months of a time doing nothing all night but play with criminal chunks until ghosts start dancing for them; That's ideal: I really, really don't want necromancers to just be wizards who took Animate Dead instead of Fireball or Tiny hut.

    But on a group level, they've been doing everything wrong since the Dark ages. (except the Samedi, but there are few of those)

    The Giovanni Tremere'd the Capadocians, who were your good, wholesome resident necromancers. But instead of replacing the Caps like the Tremere as a highly business oriented clan of necromancers, the Giovanni... tried to become obscure and retreat into their own mono-clan domains.

    Now, I get that they did this for their grand-stupid top-secret project, but from a business perspective, it's an idiot move. Imagine for a moment the Tremere killed the last salubri and then decided they'll go make vegas the magical capital of the world (and also take a few other cities) and leave everyone else alone? In most places, there'd be a demand for Tremere services left filled by competitors, and in vegas and such the Tremere members wouldn't get any favours because everyone else has roughly the skillset they do. That's what the Giovanni have done, and yeah maybe they have their own baronies attached to some Camarilla domains, but at that point you might as well just join the camarilla. The Giovanni are an interesting clan that has deliberately made themselves irrelevant... but also for some reason the gap they should've left open hasn't been filled by anyone else. The other necromancers are ever more obscure bloodlines and the excuse made is to keep most of them obscure is potential persecution from.. the clan who have hidden in the corner.

    The Hecata is just the problem aggravated; Instead of one clan that's fucked off into the corner and a bunch of competitor bloodlines that fear them, they've all fucked off into the same corner, to be even more irrelevant than before. Imagine for a moment that all the electricians in the world settled in one town; The electricians would have nobody nearby who needs their services, and the rest of the world'd be screwed when they get a power cut. That's what the necromancers have been doing.

    The Tremere set a wonderful precedent; They're in groups big enough that they can support eachother, but they're spread out among most cities so they all have a hungry customer base. The Capadocians failed the former, but the -should be business savvy- Giovanni failed the latter.

    It makes me wonder if necromancers are even needed; Just use Auspex, find fetters, and destroy them. Most of kindred society has worked just fine without corpse fuckers, why do they even exist in modern nights? (it doesn't help that I don't really know how common ghosts with world effecting powers are) Maybe once upon a time they were meant to be an edgy camarilla where people trade ghost slaves as currency...

    I understand some of the reasons why Necromancy is separate from Thaumaturgy, but when necromancers are treated like this, it's a silly distinction.

    Solutions?
    I kinda feel like the Capadocians were destined to be wiped out. The best solution would be to make the Samedi spread (culturally as well as in number), wind the neck in of the Nagajara so they aren't playing Dirty secrets of the black hand anymore, and set the Giovanni (and subsidiary families) up like an actual group that works with the rest of undead society whilst keeping with the corpse fucking themes: Giovanni take baronies or large domains in camarilla cities. These domains house 2-5 vampires (and a lot of mortal family members) and, unlike the Ventrue and Tremere, the Giovanni typically invest close to themselves for the sake of their mortal families. The Giovanni keep close enough with other "kindred" to do business but far away enough that they're not disturbed. They rarely seek trouble, but can be quite ruthless when it comes to debts. They are relatively often targets due to their uncanny ability to develop attractive domains, their frequent clash of financial interests with other clans (particularly the Ventrue), their often-low humanity, and frequent demonization of necromancy.



    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

  • #2
    I *LOVE* Necromancy!

    I love it so much that I gave the Brujah Necromancy as their fourth in-clan discipline in my games.

    That said, I agree that it's been unnecessarily cloistered away from the mainstream of vampire society.

    MORE NECROMANCY!!!!!!!!!!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      The Giovanni Tremere'd the Capadocians, who were your good, wholesome resident necromancers. But instead of replacing the Caps like the Tremere as a highly business oriented clan of necromancers, the Giovanni... tried to become obscure and retreat into their own mono-clan domains
      In my games, the Giovanni is a bit different. They're an independent mercenary clan that crosses over between sects. They're one of the few non-Sabbat groups that the Sabbat respects and gives a certain level of acceptance to since the Giovanni murdered their Antideluvian. So you have Giovanni living in Sabbat territory and working together with Sabbat packs, usually on a quid pro quo basis.

      Meanwhile the Giovanni generally follow the Masquerade, so they've always found acceptance in Camarilla cities.

      The Giovanni are fairly common in the Camarilla and have traditionally served as a sort of counter to the Tremere. When vampires need magical assistance or magical muscle but don't want to involve the Tremere, they turn towards the Giovanni. They've been given the offer to join the Camarilla officially, but the Giovanni prefer their status as an independent clan, since it allows them to sell their services to a wider range of groups.

      Ultimately as the Giovanni are basically anywhere and everywhere and willing to work for nayone, Necromancy as a whole is a bit more common in my campaigns. Plus the Giovanni are a little bit more willing to share their knowledge of Necromancy than the Tremere are willing to share Thaumaturgy

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      • #4
        I think I'd do something similar to AnubisXy, except I'd keep the Sabbat and Giovanni separate. And really only because I like the idea that surviving Cappadocians flocked to the Sword of Caine for protection, and fill the slot of "resident necromancers" with them.

        Under this model, I'd use an idea I read elsewhere: Sabbat Cappadocians are hardcore survivalists, not only working to oppose Clan Giovanni, but also Cappadocius himself, whom the Cappadocians believe secretly survived his Diablerie (or faked it). They take the Feast of Folly as an object lesson, and are preparing for the worst.

        Indeed, given how the Giovanni would be buddy-buddy with the Camarilla, even in an independent way, I'd assume the Cappadocians would be insisting to every Sabbat vampire they can find that their Antedeluvian faked his death, and possibly even controls Clan Giovanni to this very night. After all, the Giovanni ARE extremely friendly with the other obvious thralls of the Antedeluvians. In any event, I'm skeptical that the Sabbat - the militant fanatics of the vampire world - would give any slack to a group that so readily deals with their ideological opponents. It's the same as with the Setites, and the Serpents of Light that joined the Sabbat against them.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          The Giovanni Tremere'd the Capadocians, who were your good, wholesome resident necromancers. But instead of replacing the Caps like the Tremere as a highly business oriented clan of necromancers, the Giovanni... tried to become obscure and retreat into their own mono-clan domains.
          Except it made them the richest clan of vampires in the world and protected them almost completely from the Jyhad.



          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            The Hecata is just the problem aggravated; Instead of one clan that's fucked off into the corner and a bunch of competitor bloodlines that fear them, they've all fucked off into the same corner, to be even more irrelevant than before. Imagine for a moment that all the electricians in the world settled in one town; The electricians would have nobody nearby who needs their services, and the rest of the world'd be screwed when they get a power cut. That's what the necromancers have been doing.
            This wasn't how I interpreted the Hecata writeup in Cults. My interpretation was that the necromancers were banding together to present a unified front, and to not undercut each other. Now they have a monopoly and can sell their services to all the sects—most Camarilla cities, Anarch cities, and Sabbat cities alike will have a smallish Hecata contingent who can either accomplish what you need, or know a guy (who knows a guy etc) who can. And their reputation as the only remaining independent clan works in their favor there.

            In other words, it's not that every electrician moved to Venice to focus on studying electricity: it's that all the electricians worldwide agreed on unified branding and pricing (and the ones who were opposed to this idea quietly disappeared). Which is good news for the electricians (or at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy), and bad news for anyone who was relying on competition to keep prices low.

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            • #7
              There's always been a fairly arbitrary decision implicit in certain clans being officially not-standard. Dominate is one of the most horrific powers there is, able to Condition someone into being little more than a lobotomized robot, yet it is one of the more common disciplines. Whereas Disciplines like Necromancy, which at best equal Dominate in horror, are considered "out-there", and given to clans that are sort of shunted to the side, implicitly there mainly as antagonist NPCs, or if the ST wants to Black Dog it up.


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              • #8
                I've liked the core concept of the clan, but I haven't liked how that potential has been developed in game (even while acknowledging the original Giovanni clanbook had many good things about it, and was probably the best of the original clanbooks). However, I have very different opinions that the OP (and likely most people on this thread).

                First, I like the description of Giovanni as the modern Borgias - powerful, rich, and seemingly respectable, but steeped in sin and immorality. Necromancy is just one aspect of that general immortality. (Their only ties with the criminal underworld is through the Putanesca family, a particularly deprecated family of the clan).

                Second, somewhere along the way, the Giovanni went from being a relatively small clan (originally described as embracing only 3 members per generation, implying on average one vampire every decade - so this is an extremely small clan) to one seemingly on par with any of the Camarilla clans (though on the low end). As a result not only were they rich, they rivaled the Ventrue. I always thought that was a mistake. In my chronicles, the Giovanni are about the size of a respectable lineage of Ventrue blood bloods who also embrace their line's descendants. Fairly influential, but nothing on par with the Ventrue or even the Toreador or Tremere. They were powerful enough not to be bothered, but not enough to risk stirring the pot.

                Third, what purpose do they serve in the setting? I never had major plans for the Giovanni. Although I did see them as an ultimately doomed clan whose past actions would haunt them, and they'd eventually be destroyed (as the Cappadocians were not actually destroyed as evidenced by all the various pseudo-Cappadocians out there). But that was simply their fate as opposed to what role they could play in my chronicles. So the main role they served were as the "neutral" Clan everyone else could deal with.

                Their domains were like Casablanca where Rick & Sam could deal with both Major Strasser, Victor Laszlo, Captain Renault and Signor Ferrari. As such, they were a useful resource if someone needed financial help, but didn't want to go to the Ventrue; or information but were on the outs with the Nosferatu; or needed help with the occult, but didn't trust the Tremere. You'd be making a deal with the devil, but that applied with any vampire, didn't it? You're a Camarilla vampire who wants to cut a deal with the Sabbat (or an Anarch who wants a safe place to have a real discussion with a Loyalist Sabbat)? Let the Giovanni arrange it, and have them guarantee everyone's safety. The Giovanni had their own plans of course, but that typically did not involve interfering in sect conflicts. It gave me a venue to allow things that normally couldn't be done.

                This goes against how a lot of players expect the clan to be - arrogant vampires who thumb their noses at the other clans (I've seen this archetype a LOT in LARP). I've accepted that if I play in other people's chronicles. But this is how I prefer them to be.

                Fourth, while Necromancy was in-clan for the Giovanni, it didn't mean every member knew it. I always thought it was silly that any concept of the clan had one or more dots in it. No, that mob enforcer doesn't know the Discipline, nor would he ever be taught because he'd have no aptitude. Same thing with many other concepts. There were lots of necromancers within the clan of various skill, but likely half of its members didn't have it.

                Fifth, in terms of the Necromancy discipline itself, the main issue is how the ST wants to handle it. I never liked it as a power other people couldn't do anything about (I saw this abused heavily in LARP). So I only wanted it used if it brought all the atmosphere and perils found in Wraith. Which meant mastering a good deal with that game's lore. It meant ghosts were a prominent part of the setting, even if one usually ignored IC by most NPCs. You did get advantages from it - knowledge about the past, omens of the future, and sometimes secrets of the present. But it could also mean the Hierarchy enslaves your wraithly retainers, a Spectre burns down your haven, or dealing with a wraith who's supposedly friendly but happens to be in Catharsis at the moment. Having that Discipline meant involvement in that world.

                Furthermore, while they had skilled necromancers, they did not have a monopoly on that Discipline. There were skilled Sabbat who knew it as well; the canonical bloodlines had it; some Setites knew it; and there were scattered practitioners in the Camarilla as well (though not the Tremere, since Necromancy was based on the vampire's own connection to death, as opposed to the mystick power of Vitae, so Tremere thaumaturgical practice wasn't helpful to them). Not to mention all those vampires with Auspex who could possible interact with you as well. And all those mortals who had similar powers (though not as effective since they lacked that connection to death which made vampire necromancy so potent). It was its own little world that could lead to lots of interactions with other beings of the setting that a game of Vampire usually ignores.

                I think this crossover element is essential. Without it, Necromancy not only loses much of its great atmosphere, but most of its reason to exist.
                Last edited by Black Fox; 08-05-2020, 02:18 AM. Reason: added a little more

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                • #9
                  I personally have to agree with Anubis, Draconis, and Black Fox.

                  I’ve always seen the Giovanni as an extremely mercantile and intentionally independent clan in much the way that Switzerland is neutral. Not only to protect itself but so as to do business with both sides.

                  The Giovanni from their inception have been in a prime position to work decently well with just about anyone. They were useful to the nascent Camarilla by simultaneously removing the increasingly concerning wildcard that Cappadocius and his clan had become while also simultaneously serving to further cement the narrative that the antediluvians are a myth - after all, loyalty to a blood god is antithetical to loyalty to a sect and its leadership. The Sabbat would no doubt be pleased to see another of the dread antediluvians fall, even if the Giovanni were not truly of Caine’s line and were crass ursurers - they were still a victory and potential ally or resource. They provided a potential resource for the Anarch Movement and other Independent/Autarkis outside the sects as the Venetians would gladly do business with anyone.

                  The Giovanni got to take a step back from the bloodshed of the jyhad and become war profiteers and one of the most financially valuable conflicts in history - not a bad deal. Furthermore their near monopoly over Necromancy placed them into a strong bargaining position with any sect and most clans. They carefully avoided being threats, taking only a few domains truly as their own and largely existing on the outside of every other sect’s society. While they may not have been anyone’s friend they were everyone’s business partner and managed to not become as hated as the Tremere.

                  I agree that the Giovanni should be a relatively small clan, most likely the smallest of the independent clans (prior to the Week of Nightmares) and on the low end of clan populations in general with the Giovanni family themselves actually being a minority of the clan’s membership. What they lacked in numbers however they made up for with their Necromantic Monopoly, adamant neutrality, and amoral mercantile outlook. The clan was in a perfect position to accrue resources and influence, always leaning back and let the other’s scoff at them for being petty guilders.

                  An underestimation that was critical for their master plan to success, as if the other sects became aware of the clan’s ultimate goal - and the potential possibility of achieving it - they would suddenly find themselves in just as precarious a position as Cappadocius and his followers.

                  That said I also like the various Hecata groups and/or Bloodlines of Death as a reaction to the Giovanni’s behavior, outlook, and monopoly. You have the mystic outlooks - many of whom potentially descended from the Clan of Death - with clear reasons to oppose the Giovanni such as the Lamiae, Samedi, remnants of the Cappadocians and arguably the Nagaraja. You have those who would naturally be vengeful such as Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Lamiae, and some Malkavians. You also have those who would simply like to undermine the clan’s monopoly such as certain Tremere, Samedi, Bahari, other novice Necromancers whose business the Giovanni have a had a vested interest and quelling, and the other sects who’d like a better bargaining position. However while I feel that these are all strong reasons to create a loose network of alliances to oppose the Giovanni - whether out of ideology, vengeance, or pragmatism - there’s another element I feel should could be better explored.

                  Giovanni Antitribu. The concept has been woefully under explored imo. Every clan, no matter how tightly knit and structured and indoctrinated , has outsiders. The Tremere have House Goratrix. The Ventrue and Banu Haqim both have abtitribu. The Malkavians and Nosferatu both have antitrubu, even when clan culture keeps them relatively close to the main body.

                  It is inevitable, with the Giovanni’s history and mindset, what they would generate antitribu. Even with a relatively low population and rate of embrace, antitribu are a fact of life in the jyhad. The Giovanni vassal families are scorned enough to make the notion of some Dunsirn or Milliner or Rossellini defecting very possible.

                  These antitribu, perhaps as much if not more then the other bloodlines or Death, would have good reason to want to gather allies for support and protection from their parent clan. From this I see the possibility of a network of alliances being very useful, particularly as such a group would very much be in the best interests of the sects. I can easily see them gaining Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarch backing alike to counter-balance the Giovanni.

                  Anyway though, that’s all just my take. Hope it was interesting for folks though.

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                  • #10
                    personally i dont see the issue with the Giovannis approach - they dont want to be involed, they dont want to be in the light, they dont want to sell out their secrets. They play a different game, and that has its up and downsides.
                    Self isolation does shield you from the jihad, persecution and laying low drs less attention from unters and other supernaturals. I might add that some branches of the order of hermes retreated entirely into astral realms for very similiar reasons.

                    The issue i see is rather thaumaturgy - thaumaturgy is apparently without limits and can replace about any other discipline of the game with one of its paths. Including necromancy. So in my mind, the tremere filled the necromancer niche and necromancers are now just not needed anymore. You need a zombie or a ghost? the tremere have them ins tock and they are already in your city, be you sabbath or camarilla, there is antitribu everywhere.

                    Id say if the giovanni were more,....aggressive in their presence, the Tremere would pull strings to shut them down and the Tremere have te power to do so, so laying low may be the best idea for the giovanni. Not to mention that some other clans also have their inherent issues with necromancers

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Draconis View Post


                      In other words, it's not that every electrician moved to Venice to focus on studying electricity: it's that all the electricians worldwide agreed on unified branding and pricing (and the ones who were opposed to this idea quietly disappeared). Which is good news for the electricians (or at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy), and bad news for anyone who was relying on competition to keep prices low.
                      From a business perspective, the Hecata is stupid:

                      -There aren't enough necromancers to really pose much competition, so you're not really getting much here.
                      -Joining the Hecatta, for most bloodlines, guarantees the shitter. Nice city needs a necromancer: who gets the job; your rotting ass or Claudio, the boss's cousin? Shit city wants some trivial boons done? Off you go.
                      -There aren't enough necromancers around to hunt you down when you leave; who'd notice you? What are they going to do when you're in good with the locals and they come along and try to kill a good relationship? Especially now that most guys who were powerful are dead, it should be easier to be an independent.


                      From a game standpoint, the Hecata are stupid:

                      -All the different bloodlines were cool, and shoving them together negates that to a degree based on opinion.
                      -All the different discipline spreads gave us a lot to work with (I won't touch on oblivion; I don't need to) and now they're largely gone.
                      -The death of giovanni leadership presented an opportunity to spread out the necromancers and present them as a playable clan in more games, but the writers have doubled down on putting them in the corner.
                      -The book could've done us a huge favour and set the uprising in the present, that would've been cool, but it didn't, that all happened in the past.

                      What did the Hecata actually do right?


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                      • #12
                        In any given chronicle the Giovanni (now the Hecata) can cover 3 distinct roles:

                        Protagonists: the Giovanni only chronicle where they work together against the other sects or to accomplish a goal set for them. The Giovanni families were introduced to make the clan less "one-note" and now the Hecata fulfill that role even better, especially if you apply the optional discipline variations between the various bloodlines.

                        Antagonists: self explanatory and possibly the most common role involving the clan of death. The Giovanni/Hecata are the big bad whose plans the coterie needs to thwart in order to accomplish its goals/survive. The Giovanni/Hecata are well equipped to fill this role, they have money, power and mystical might. They might seem like outsiders to other sects but given their mercenary nature they have "friends in high places" (or people to compromised with them to tell them "no" when they ask for something) in every sect, Sabbat, and Anarchs included. So fighting them off is not just the simple matter of rallying the other vampires against the evil necromancers. As friends and allies turn their backs on the coterie paranoia sets in and the game becomes "us... alone against the mob".

                        Contacts/Allies: The idea that the Giovanni/Hecata don't work with the rest of vampiredom is just propaganda. The Giovanni have their fingers in a lot of pies. They provide goods/services to other clans and individual vampires in a similar way to what the Followers of Set do, but apparently with less strings attached. When you deal with the FoS you know you are dealing with someone who wants to hook you up untill you cannot do without their services and become their slave, while with the Giovanni most of the time they just want to be paid. Mind you, the hook is there sometimes. If they need something from you or they consider you in their debt sooner or later they will come knocking at your door to collect, but they don't want to convert you or induct you into their family. On the contrary they just want to profit from you and don't want you messing with their stuff. This role also stresses the function as mediators/mercenaries the Giovanni fulfilled since their inception. They work and sell stuff to the Camarilla, to the Sabbat, to the Anarchs and to Autharkis. In theory the Promise of 1528 should keep them out of the Jhyad but in truth they play the game as everyone else does, only even less in the open. Now that the Hacata are the only independent clan left this role is stronger than it ever was, their supposed neutrality is an asset in the way they work in the setting.

                        It's also important to note that as a clan (well the clan heads at least) the Giovanni/Hecata had a clear goal in mind to win the war of ages and it all came to nothing because of external circumstances (the great maelstroms destroying most of their camps in the underworld). That was a thematically important element to them but one that could become the central focus of the clan or be easily ignored (when you deal with Giovanni goons shaking you down you are not usually dealing with folks desperately trying to bring up the ghostapocalypse...).

                        That said there's a problem with the Giovanni/Hecata: because of their neutrality and it's difficult to justify having them work with other vampires in mixed coteries as they work like the Tremere clan but on steroids (because of ghosts... you never know who is spying on you). The way I dealt with this in the past was to have a PC Giovanni be an envoy to the Camarilla and another time have one pose as a member of the family supposedly estranged with his relatives. Anyway, it is possible to have Giovanni/Hecata work in a mixed coterie but it takes some effort compared to having a Toreador a Ventrue a Nosferatu and a Malkavian join forces in a Camarilla domain.
                        Last edited by Haquim; 08-05-2020, 10:56 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                          ;.

                          Contacts/Allies: The idea that the Giovanni/Hecata don't work with the rest of vampiredom is just propaganda.

                          . Anyway, it is possible to have Giovanni/Hecata work in a mixed coterie but it takes some effort compared to having a Toreador a Ventrue a Nosferatu and a Malkavian join forces in a Camarilla domain.
                          I'd like to say 'pick one' but you are technically correct; you can make Giovanni work with others, but it's way more effort than it should be. They work with others, but not well. The only clan more difficult to throw into a camarilla coterie is the tzmisce; The other Independent clans are far easier to work with, as are most extant bloodlines (played right, that is). Mechanically, the gio work fine. Fluff wise, they're there for an odd job or there are some weird circumstances at play. I think It'd be a lot better if we reduced the barriers here.

                          An all-Giovanni game is slightly more interesting than most -all clan x- options. But -all one bloodline- games are good in general.
                          An all Hecata game... That's when we get into the question of 'why?' Even with v20 rules there's only so much you can do with necromancy; one person with the sephulcre path is all you need, more is redundant. The bone path and if i recall correctly the ash path are the same in terms of redundancy whilst the other paths have little impact on the party. The weakness combination is interesting and yet the fluff is pants; a Harbringer, A milliner, a Samedi and a Najagara walk into a bar... The two corpses accuse their hookups of necrophilia and the two bad-bites eat the bartender...

                          like, you can do it, but it's not an easy thing to keep believable. You could do a lot more with a lot less using a clan with castes or bloodlines or by using Tremere and their gargoyles...


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            An all-Giovanni game is slightly more interesting than most -all clan x- options. But -all one bloodline- games are good in general.
                            An all Hecata game... That's when we get into the question of 'why?' Even with v20 rules there's only so much you can do with necromancy; one person with the sephulcre path is all you need, more is redundant. The bone path and if i recall correctly the ash path are the same in terms of redundancy whilst the other paths have little impact on the party. The weakness combination is interesting and yet the fluff is pants; a Harbringer, A milliner, a Samedi and a Najagara walk into a bar... The two corpses accuse their hookups of necrophilia and the two bad-bites eat the bartender...

                            like, you can do it, but it's not an easy thing to keep believable. You could do a lot more with a lot less using a clan with castes or bloodlines or by using Tremere and their gargoyles...
                            If you worry about the mechanics the Hecata book gives you an optional rule to give each bloodline a different discipline spread. Also, the loresheets help quite a bit differentiating them further.

                            As far as roleplay is concerned the various bloodlines cover different themes and areas of expertise, so a full Hecata coterie can work pretty well.

                            And as for Giovanni working with others... like most other vampires it depends on the motivation they have to play along. Not all Giovanni need be smartasses with daddy issues and an obsession with the spirits of the dead, most of them have other interests and they might be accomplished by working with other vampires especially in places where the family is weak. Besides sometimes the Giovanni PCs really are at odds with their family (keep in mind one of the worst thorns in the Giovanni's collective side was one of them...)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Even with v20 rules there's only so much you can do with necromancy; one person with the sephulcre path is all you need, more is redundant. The bone path and if i recall correctly the ash path are the same in terms of redundancy whilst the other paths have little impact on the party. The weakness combination is interesting and yet the fluff is pants; a Harbringer, A milliner, a Samedi and a Najagara walk into a bar... The two corpses accuse their hookups of necrophilia and the two bad-bites eat the bartender...
                              With V20 rules, all necromancers start on the Sepulchre path with very few exceptions, which means everyone's necromantic powerset is the same until you've invested quite a lot of xp. If you ignore that rule, though:

                              You could have a Giovanni who deals with ghosts and the Shroud (Sepulchre, Ash, Cenotaph), a Samedi who deals with flesh and bone (Bone, Mortuus, Thanatosis), a Harbinger who does scrying and divination (Auspex and rituals), a Rossellini or Puttanesca who's not a necromancer but has a lot of Potence, a Milliner or Dunsirn who's not a necromancer but has money and influences everywhere…

                              Or you could break it up further and have one person handle the Shroud and Shadowlands, one person handle ghosts and fetters, one person handle reanimating the dead, one person handle buffing and debuffing dead flesh, and then distribute the non-necromancy aspects (influences, resources, enforcement, other disciplines) however you like.

                              Plenty of ways to have a diverse group of necrovampires. I don't particularly love V5's implementation of necromancy (that's why I wrote my own replacement for it), but it still seems to be written in a way that's conducive to all-Hecata games.

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