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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    * Indianapolis: Both an Anarch city AND a Ministry city.
    thought the ministry were anarchs...what went wrong?


    -

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    • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

      thought the ministry were anarchs...what went wrong?
      I'm saying its specifically an Anarch city but predominantly Ministry, just like Los Angeles is an Anarch city and predominately Brujah.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        Cities we know have fallen:
        I've updating the list of Anarch cities.

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        • Ni Dieu Ni Maitre

          This is another section that feels like the back ground of a PC, or possibly a pair of PCs. It is not bad, but there are so many of these types of sections in the book it begins to feel repetitive.

          Specifically, an Anarch vampire falls for a Camarilla vampire and plays a role in the Camarilla neonate’s defection from the Ivory Tower. Some details along the way include both characters being female, and the Anarch being black. The two become lovers under the proverbial nose of the Camarilla neonate’s sire. His pettiness and control freak nature do as much to drive her to the Anarchs and her Anarch lover does to draw her away.

          This is not bad section and I’m not dismayed by the lesbian aspect or the interracial aspect. However, this is another section of the book which provides little useful game material but works better (as I said) as the background of either one or two PCs. It more or less treads the same ground as four previous sections in those terms. However, it is engagingly written.

          The title of the section comes from the French slogan "Ni dieu ni maître!" (literally 'Neither god nor master') coined by the socialist Louis Auguste Blanqui in 1880. This is a suitably Anarch philosophy.

          As an aside, I have a hunch most Camarilla elders are bad in bed and bad at most social interactions – they rely too much on disciplines like Presence and Dominate, so much so their actual skill sets atrophy. After a while, when the powers wear off and the blood bonds break, the victims remember the elder as a petty jackass and selfish lover.


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          • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
            As an aside, I have a hunch most Camarilla elders are bad in bed and bad at most social interactions – they rely too much on disciplines like Presence and Dominate, so much so their actual skill sets atrophy. After a while, when the powers wear off and the blood bonds break, the victims remember the elder as a petty jackass and selfish lover.
            I agree, most Toreador don't bother with Seduction rolls at the Elder stage because why should you? The end result is the same.

            According to Outstar, who sticks closer to the rules than most Storytellers I know, its important to remember that most Kindred derive no pleasure from the sexual act at Humanity 7 or below. However, the Blush of Life is something all Kindred can do now and it seems far broader than previous editions in giving you the ability to feel as well as give pleasure. Elders I suspect don't bother with the Blush of Life versus simple feeding as the material is quite clear that the Kiss is more pleasurable than sex or drugs both.

            No need to bother to play with your food.

            Interestingly, I think we're after this point but since this is a romance section, one thing I noticed in the ANARCH book was that we get an update on E and Lilly. You know, the Thin Bloods from Bloodlines. Apparently, canonically, they're broken up because E managed to get a human woman knocked up.

            After all the crap I went through to get them back together too!


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              A note that the term Anarch seems synonamous among Kindred with revolutionary as well. My take on the Brujah Council they're Anarchs the same way the Sabbat are. An organization born from the original Anarch movement.
              I thought the Brujah Council was less about being similar to Anarchs than simply another Brujah controlled attempt to recreate their "utopia" at Carthage which predated the Anarch Revolt by a long time.

              The sense I got from the original description 30 years ago was that just like Carthage was supposed to be a blend of "harmonious" relations between vampire and kine; that Brujah vampire control of human Communism was supposed to create a similar "utopia". Except in the first the vampires at Carthage fed on discarded human babies left for human sacrifice, and the vampires in the Soviet Union fed on the political prisoners of the Gulag and other prison camps.

              Not all conflicts about vampire society in the Camarilla fits the dynamics of elder versus anarch. Sometimes these different elements can blend together, but that doesn't transform one into the other.

              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              I think the Brujah Council would support Anarch movements around the world as "useful fools" who undermined Camarilla power.
              I'm pretty sure the Brujah Council would support Anarchs for the same reason why Brujah elders (and sometimes others) in the Camarilla support the anarchs on occasion - they're useful tools that can be used to put pressure on their rivals and then discarded. Critias' temporary support for Maldavis didn't make him an Anarch.

              Again, because the books never indicated the Brujah Council and the Anarchs were ever tied, I always assumed it was some strange thing either part of the Camarilla, or something entirely new. But there was enough circumstantial evidence that indicated it was somehow part of the Camarilla.

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              • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                Again, because the books never indicated the Brujah Council and the Anarchs were ever tied, I always assumed it was some strange thing either part of the Camarilla, or something entirely new. But there was enough circumstantial evidence that indicated it was somehow part of the Camarilla.
                This is not the case in ANARCHS UNBOUND.

                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...46#post1356946

                The French Revolution and Soviet Union are identified as Anarch in nature.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Cities we know have fallen:

                  * Washington DC: Vitel may be an AINO but you don't have to follow the system when you're one of the most famous powerful vampires in the world.

                  * Berlin: Because the Camarilla thought the previous Prince was too soft, they put in a hardliner and lost the city. I imagine they blame the previous Prince.

                  * Las Vegas: I actually think it would be best to make Therese the Baron of Vegas because she's able to embody both sides of the city.

                  * Indianpolis: Both an Anarch city AND a Ministry city.
                  One major problem I have with metaplot, is that originally the cities that were Camarilla, Anarch, and Sabbat made certain sense. But metaplot is determined to make the game stupid.

                  Cities that retained a good economy and manageable crime, like Chicago in the 80s and early 90s, were Camarilla. Cities that had a good economy, but high crime like LA with its gang wars, were Anarch. Cities that were in decline economically and had high crime like Detroit, were Sabbat. Cities that had mixed elements tended to be contested which is why New York was predominantly Sabbat, but Manhattan was still controlled by the Camarilla. Miami, with its drug cartel wars but drug fueled economic boom, was likewise another city that could be a contested field.

                  I think this early attitude of "what makes sense given how these cities are in real life" was a major strength of the initial setting. They created their history and sect strongholds based on the real world and worked their way back to explain it.

                  However, metaplot destroys that strength because metaplot isn't concerned with any kind of connection with the real world. It's only concern is "what can I do now to create the plot I want." It's why the Revised metaplot of the Sabbat Crusade didn't make sense in the late 1990s which was an era of decreasing crime and economic prosperity. It's like when watching a movie or TV and you see characters do things they absolutely would never do except that the plot requires them to do so.

                  This list of cities seems similarly strange to me. Indianapolis as a stronghold of the Anarchs and Setites? Has anyone ever been to Indianapolis?

                  To me, this clearly puts the WoD into a fantasy mode with little basis in reality.

                  Now, I don't mind it when an individual ST decides something is different in their chronicle, because local chronicles have their own history and plots. But I think the published setting needs to make sense. If you say City X is ruled by sect Z, then I should go, "Yes, that makes sense." Not "these people don't seem to know what they are doing."

                  There are plenty of cities I could see being new strongholds of the Anarchs. But this list doesn't seem to be it.

                  Comment


                  • Black Fox

                    I dunno, it depends on how close you see the WORLD OF DARKNESS to our world. I don't tend to think of the WoD as resembling our world + vampires alone. I feel that was the premise of the NuWoD. Requiem was just Earth+vampires. V:TM I feel is more, "You know Tim Burton's Gotham City? A city with a bunch of art deco skyscrapers, literally insane levels of crime, and gargoyles everywhere? That is Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles."

                    Mind you, I never actually took the idea of "What actually reflects the Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarchs" very seriously because I honestly didn't think they did a very good job to begin with. The Sabbat's strongholds were Canada, Sweden, Norway, and other locations that generally did not have massive crime rates.

                    Montreal by Night flat out admitted that the Montreal of the book had NO relationship to the actual Milwaukee of the real world and was all the better for it. I think this has been the case from the very beginning because of Milwaukee. Milwaukee by Night has a city that is home of the Vampire and Werewolf Vietnam. Presumably hundreds of casualties, daily battles of the undead, and a place where the strongest go to die.

                    Milwaukee.

                    The World of Darkness Halifax in Nova Scotia is more like this.



                    So a bit GRAND THEFT AUTO versus reality.

                    But that's just me and YMMV.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      This is not the case in ANARCHS UNBOUND.
                      Yes, I understand the current developers are saying this is the case. I'm pointing out that this was not the case originally, and introducing this at this late date is overturning what some people have been doing for 25 years or so. I also don't think the decision was well supported with the bits of canon we did have. It's effectively retroactive continuity or an alternate reality.

                      It's why I don't support V5 and why I ultimately stopped buying books in the Revised era.

                      The French Revolution is a little different, because I think it was always implied - and perhaps even stated - that this was one of those failed neo-Anarch uprisings before the LA Anarch Free State. Whatever the Anarchs may have achieved for a time during Paris ultimately did not have any impact on how things were governed. That's in contrast to the decades long rule of the Brujah Council.

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                      • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        Yes, I understand the current developers are saying this is the case. I'm pointing out that this was not the case originally, and introducing this at this late date is overturning what some people have been doing for 25 years or so. I also don't think the decision was well supported with the bits of canon we did have. It's effectively retroactive continuity or an alternate reality.

                        It's why I don't support V5 and why I ultimately stopped buying books in the Revised era.

                        The French Revolution is a little different, because I think it was always implied - and perhaps even stated - that this was one of those failed neo-Anarch uprisings before the LA Anarch Free State. Whatever the Anarchs may have achieved for a time during Paris ultimately did not have any impact on how things were governed. That's in contrast to the decades long rule of the Brujah Council.
                        Anarchs Unbound is a V20 product by Justin Achilli.

                        We also had literally about 2 or 3 sentences about the Brujah Council in 1st Edition to Revised.

                        I admit, I like this because I don't think the War of Ages would go away with the Treaty of Thorns. WHAT HAVE THE ANARCHS BEEN DOING FOR 600 YEARS? Basically, that's my question. The Sabbat are fundamentally not a revolutionary organization so I think the Anarchs should be behind pretty much every peasant revolt and revolution, no matter the actual cause. For example, I expect there to be Anarchs on both sides of the Civil War (Brujah John Brown fighting against racist Brujah separatists would be particularly sweet).

                        But I don't see any reason that Brujah Communists can't fight Brujah Anarchists, Brujah fascists, and Brujah Democrats. Its the clan of extremism, not freedom.
                        Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-21-2020, 07:38 PM.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Thanks for the correction on Anarchs Unbound. But since I don't like Revised metaplot which was the brainchild of Justin Achilli, I'm not surprised he has a hand in yet another thing I don't like. He's an imaginative man with some good ideas, but he has a tendency to ignore things when they get in the way of the story he wants to tell (and force on everyone else by making it the new canon).

                          Yes, there was very little mentioned about what precisely the Brujah Council was. I said that multiple times already. I made it clear that much of what I was saying based on my own interpretations. At the same time, I've had almost 30 years of developing my own ideas about the setting. And those big empty spots Developers are trying to fill in 20+ years later of the setting, well, many old fans have already done that. Because we weren't going to wait 20+ years until someone did so. Just explaining why I don't think retroactively making the Brujah Council some kind of Anarch group was the right decision.

                          I also don't react as you do with interest on the question of what the Anarchs been doing the past 600 years because I think it's like Marxists trying to link the Spartacus Revolt or Medieval German Peasant Rebellions into a common Communist history. There's actually no link between them.

                          The Anarchs ceased being a movement after the Treaty of Thorns. Any surviving Anarchs became the Sabbat (like Tyler originally). The pardoned Anarchs who joined the Camarilla probably spent the next few hundred years trying to make it work. And some became happy with the new status quo. Others sold our completely. Others were dissatisfied, but ultimately remained loyal to the Camarilla as the least bad option. It took some time before some of those pardoned decided to rebel against this new system. The neo-Anarchs are merely inspired by the original Anarchs. There's no institutional link between them. Of course, there were some former Anarchs who weren't very happy with the Camarilla, and eventually they started causing trouble again - probably a few centuries later and after the first Camarilla-Sabbat Wars were over. Because vampires can live hundred of years, some of these people also became neo-Anarchs. But the Anarchs as an organized group didn't exist after the Treaty of Thorns. And once the neo-Anarchs creeped in (as a result of new embraces mostly, not the old Anarchs coming back and taking the lead) they were fighting a different war than the original Anarchs because the Camarilla is a different organization than the elder society that existed prior to the Revolt. Altered Traditions, revised mores and customs, Conclaves. and other reforms made that so. I see the two movements linked only by one being the inspiration for the other. Not any actual institutional connection. Any such claims are just propaganda.

                          The neo-Anarchs went through a series of failed revolts. And as such, lost most of their numbers and any organizational cohesion before the next one flared. Although there may have been a few old timers involved in multiple risings. It wasn't until the LA Free State was established that finally one could say there was now a distinct group, as opposed to loosely affiliated groups scattered over the centuries which shared the same name.

                          The Brujah Council was never mentioned as being part of this legacy though. That's why they weren't considered to be Anarchs. Brujah "revolutionaries" of course. But that isn't the same as Anarchs. Not every Brujah who doesn't like the Ventrue or Toreador is an Anarch.

                          I agree that Brujah Communists should fight Brujah Anarchists, Brujah fascists, and Brujah democrats. Not sure why you think that is a matter of dispute. The clan has never been united and intraclan fights are the norm.

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                          • I:IV:XV

                            There is nothing like a Masquerade breach in the form of a heretical confession of a Caine worshipping vampire to make an abusive sire sound like a dangerous cultist.

                            This section takes the form of a letter written from a sire – V – to their childre. V discusses the workings, under moral and spiritual philosophy, of the Church of Caine. This group is also known as the Cainite Heresy.

                            The Cainite Heresy is a kind of inverted Gnosticism. In standard Gnostic belief and practice the spiritual world, and spiritual creatures were created by a good deity while the physical world and physical forms were created to imprison divine spirits. In the Cainite Heresy version, vampires are except from the standard belief and are taken as perfect angels because of their nominally incorruptible forms.

                            The Cainite Heresy presents a spiritual, or at least religious organization, for the Anarchs in addition to the Ministry of Love, or the rebranded Followers of Set.

                            The sire writing the letter admits to a forcible conversion of their childre. This included a ghastly ritual transformation into a vampire. The childre in question is probably a fanatic devotee now, or an enemy who hates their sire and the church.

                            Joliet is apparently home to a branch of the Cainite Heresy, according to Chicago by Night 5th. They are apparently brazen in their activates, almost to a Sabbat level.

                            Edit: I think the section title is a reference to a Bible verse; 1 John 4:15, If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
                            Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 09-23-2020, 01:39 PM.

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                            • Black Fox

                              That's a very valid way of looking at it but not the way I run the Anarchs through the ages. Basically, for me, the Movement never died but merely changed forms across the centuries. Mostly because "Anarch" is just what anyone who is against the Elders and the Elder system is in a city. It is a fluid title and one that is often applied to people who are not really Anarchs in any meaningful sense. It's a bit like saying "terrorist" or "guerila." Anarch really describes a methodology of gathering the dsicontented in a city and using them to overthrow the Prince or organized opposition to the heirarchy than a significant movement.

                              At least until the Camarilla banished the Brujah and the Gangrel. Combined with the Followers of Set's Civil War and the resulting divide into the Ministry/Church of Set, the Anarchs were truly disorganized even with massive successes like the French Revolution and Russian Revolution or whatever they were doing in South America versus the Sabbat and Camarilla.

                              So, the Movement is now an organization post 5E but it was many smaller revolutions and people being called "Anarchs" for awhile.

                              Re: The Church of Caine

                              I really like the idea of the Church of Caine being something that is thriving among the Anarchs. I like the idea that it provides a sense of meaning and strength to the people who would otherwise be lacking any kind of unifying identity. The Camarilla may have many Gehenna Cults and no longer actively persecuting Noddists but I choose to believe they still do their best to discourage those who spread the legends of the Antedluvians as well as Caine.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • The Legend of Bloody Qhawe

                                In this section a vampire discusses how he sought justice for wrong done but in dealing with vampires he could only have bloody vengeance.

                                This is pretty standard, but here these aspects rise above base tropes because the story in South Africa, somewhere near Johannesburg. The narrator is a probably one of the Zulu – Qhawe is apparently a Zulu word meaning warrior. He discusses the abuses his friends and family, and himself, suffered at the hands of a private security force working for a mining company. The narrator, and the still living people essentially enslaved by the mining company, is freed. These people are freed by vampire, some of whom the narrator recognizes.

                                The section is well written. It is good to be reminded that Africa, and African vampires, exist. As with a number of vampires outside the Camarilla, they probably do not worry about titles or the jyhad. They are simply labeled Anarchs by the Ivory Tower. The Bloody Qhawe are one such group.


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