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  • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    The Camarilla is vulnerable to strategies like this and such moves could leave it moribund and unable to respond to Anarch moves
    I see two big issues with these ideas.

    1. Nothing described is Camarilla specific. Sure, maybe this is some in-character hypocrisy, but the suggested approaches to corrupt the Camarilla are exactly applicable to the Anarchs. The Anarch structure is the same. There's also a Baron and enforcers and stuff.
    2.How exactly is this supposed to work? "Make it an offence to be insufficiently servile. Always demand that the proper protocol be followed. Argue for a strict interpretation of the Traditions" - who are you and how did you end up in a position of power where you can meaningfully do that? You are Joe Newguy who just joined the local Camarilla and is now at the bottom of the pecking order. Or you are apparently powerful enough or scheming enough to kill an Archon and usurp their place, and can have way bigger impact operations than "be really annoying".

    I get it, this is clearly inspired by IRL research. But the power structure and mobility ladders of the Nazis are way different from those of the Camarilla.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
      1. Nothing described is Camarilla specific.
      Actually the term Prince is a Camarilla term. The Sabbat used Archbishop and the Anarchs (generally) use the term Baron. Further, the text in this section discusses using the Traditions, which are the Camarilla common law. No other sect uses the Traditions.

      As for your second point, I except any such effort to subvert Camarilla rule would take time, years at least and potentially decades.

      Edit: I suspect the Soviet Brujah used the term Chairman.
      Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 10-18-2020, 01:51 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
        The Prince Must Die


        Two sections which stood out to me include;
        • “Make it an offence to be insufficiently servile. When the Prince makes a joke, note who failed to laugh, then whisper to others about it. Your goal is to create a situation where the Prince makes a speech and nobody dares to stop applauding first because they’re afraid to be seen as disloyal.”
        • “A classic trick is to be a stickler for rules. Always demand that the proper protocol be followed, no matter the urgency of the situation. Argue for a strict interpretation of the Traditions, against local initiative.”
        This sounds like how some old clan Tzimisce rule their enclaves.

        Comment


        • Points of order: prince was the term used pre-Camarilla. The Traditions are used pre-camarilla (with less emphasis on the masquerade) and presumably the Ashirra.

          Prince/Baron thing is... kinda just a thing players decided on. All leaders select their titles, and Baron seems appropriate to the leader of a large semi-autonomous domain, and these Domains are often the anarch areas of a Camarilla city. But the Baron could just as well be an influentual Camarilla elder or an Independent. 'Baron' has become synonymous with Anarch leader because of the setup of these domains.

          Also Anarchs probably know that the Camarilla will more likely want to kick their teeth in if they name an Anarch "Prince".


          In an Anarch-dominated city. They would likely adopt a different term. Like "president" or "prime minister" or "Boss" or "The Leader" or "The Manager" or something.


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
            Keep Yo Turf

            One thing that struck me on reading this is that the Camarilla’s ability to do background searches on employees is non-existent or completely rubbish.

            Here a mature Anarch guides a neonate through a night and provides some guidance on survival. One big element of this is hiding in plain sight, more or less. The group of Anarchs the pair belongs to is known to exist by mortals who think it is simply another human gang with its own urban territory. I hope at least one such group of Anarchs calls themselves the Bloods.

            The older Anarch also has a relatively high humanity score, to judge by her actions here. She engages in some showy self-harm to intimidate some human gang members, rather than just trashing or even killing the mortals. But it gets the point across.

            The younger one thinks about the Masquerade and decides to pretend to be a Camarilla vampire, so as to spy on the Ivory Tower. This apparently works and she eventually gets a job an Archon. Damn. You go girl.
            It's funny because THE CHICAGO FOLIO flat out shows what a terrible idea that infiltrating the Camarilla is, at least if you don't have an exit strategy. Devin Boyes asks to argue for the player characters with the Prince and if they're dumb enough to let a teenager bargain for them, they effectively find the Camarilla wants more than just empty promises from their members regarding the Anarchs. They want you to PROVE your loyalty and that means burning bridges with the Anarchs permanently as Damien was forced to.

            Or to quite FLASH GORDON (DA DAaaa) the movie:

            Chief: We have nothing to offer but our loyalty.

            Ming the Merciless: How deep is that loyalty?

            Chief: Without limit!

            Ming the Merciless: Excellent! Kill yourself.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

              I see two big issues with these ideas.

              1. Nothing described is Camarilla specific. Sure, maybe this is some in-character hypocrisy, but the suggested approaches to corrupt the Camarilla are exactly applicable to the Anarchs. The Anarch structure is the same. There's also a Baron and enforcers and stuff.
              2.How exactly is this supposed to work? "Make it an offence to be insufficiently servile. Always demand that the proper protocol be followed. Argue for a strict interpretation of the Traditions" - who are you and how did you end up in a position of power where you can meaningfully do that? You are Joe Newguy who just joined the local Camarilla and is now at the bottom of the pecking order. Or you are apparently powerful enough or scheming enough to kill an Archon and usurp their place, and can have way bigger impact operations than "be really annoying".

              I get it, this is clearly inspired by IRL research. But the power structure and mobility ladders of the Nazis are way different from those of the Camarilla.
              I think they're going for ROYAL COURT vs. STREET GANG versus Nazis and Democracies.

              Essentially, the big difference between a Baron and a Prince is not their titles but their style of management. They're not AS different as the Anarchs like to believe. Being called a Baron is meant to be a joke and one that isn't particularly funny to old school Anarchs like Jeremy MacNeil. However, even that is a not insignificant difference, In a real sense the idea is, "A Baron is the ruler but he is meant to be significantly closer to his knights."

              A Camarilla Prince depends on tradition, protocol, and respect for the system to provide them with their power. Status, intrigue, power games, and one-upmanship in Elysium is very much a part of the thing. A lot of Camarilla leaders come from times when the forms of showing respect were long and complicated rituals that if you didn't show them, you were being actively disloyal. George W. Bush kicked out his own staff at meetings who never wore ties and that was in the 21st century.

              The funny thing about Anarchs is the fact that their leaders must show they do NOT care about the trappings of power while still having the level of personal charisma to shut down challenges to said power. A Baron is not going to care about the dress code, cheering [though he may note it], or bad attitudes but he needs to kick the shit out of anyone who actively disobeys. There's still going to be some intrigue in Anarch domains but they attempt to go with the idea of Anarch domains having less overt bullshit and pretension.

              In the TV Show ROME there's a scene where Pompey accidentally starts his war with Caesar early due to the fact Marc Anthony is so bored out of his skull with procedure he fails to exercise his veto for declaring Caesar a renegade. The Camarilla-types in this scenario run around trying to find a legal justification for undoing what they did while Marc just assumes they all want war now because, "Why would you make the vote unless you did?"


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chris Wilson View Post

                This sounds like how some old clan Tzimisce rule their enclaves.
                The prince in her story actually was Tzimisce; perhaps they didn't need to actively make her court like that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                  Actually the term Prince is a Camarilla term. The Sabbat used Archbishop and the Anarchs (generally) use the term Baron. Further, the text in this section discusses using the Traditions, which are the Camarilla common law. No other sect uses the Traditions.

                  As for your second point, I except any such effort to subvert Camarilla rule would take time, years at least and potentially decades.

                  Edit: I suspect the Soviet Brujah used the term Chairman.
                  Well yes, I know that Anarchs call their Princes "Barons". My point is that Barons still exist and Anarch clique politics are not particularly different from Camarilla clique politics. It's sort of a natural result of both being small scale might-makes-right structures.

                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  A Camarilla Prince depends on tradition, protocol, and respect for the system to provide them with their power. Status, intrigue, power games, and one-upmanship in Elysium is very much a part of the thing. A lot of Camarilla leaders come from times when the forms of showing respect were long and complicated rituals that if you didn't show them, you were being actively disloyal.
                  I dunno man. From the material I've seen - a Camarilla Prince depends on the Sheriff and personal connection to the Primogen. And usually comes to power not through status and tradition, but by kicking down the door and eating the previous Prince.

                  The funny thing about Anarchs is the fact that their leaders must show they do NOT care about the trappings of power while still having the level of personal charisma to shut down challenges to said power. A Baron is not going to care about the dress code, cheering [though he may note it], or bad attitudes but he needs to kick the shit out of anyone who actively disobeys. There's still going to be some intrigue in Anarch domains but they attempt to go with the idea of Anarch domains having less overt bullshit and pretension.
                  Dress code (not necessarily high society dress code), cheering/jeering and bad attitudes are "active disobediance" once you get authoritarian enough.
                  Last edited by Kammerer; 10-18-2020, 04:40 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

                    Well yes, I know that Anarchs call their Princes "Barons". My point is that Barons still exist and Anarch clique politics are not particularly different from Camarilla clique politics. It's sort of a natural result of both being small scale might-makes-right structures.
                    Yeah and I disagree.

                    I dunno man. From the material I've seen - a Camarilla Prince depends on the Sheriff and personal connection to the Primogen. And usually comes to power not through status and tradition, but by kicking down the door and eating the previous Prince.
                    Actually, it seems to be, "The Primogen backs you instead of the previous guy" as we see with Kevin Jackson and Joseph Peterson. But the Primogen is made of the Elders. So, it's really whoever the Elders support.

                    In Anarchs, its who everyone supports.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • I'm really, really, really having a hard time not seeing V5's Anarch/Camarilla conflict as anything other than.... Democrat and republican.

                      You've got vicious psychopathic warmongers deeply in the pockets of some terrible people, who espouse nice and agreeable ideas to look good to a younger demographic, and you've got vicious psychopathic war profiteers deeply in the pockets of terrible ideas who espouse conservative and now religious ideas, are slightly more less low-key about their clanism to appeal to an older and more established demographic. Also there's no serious third party option. In any case your schools aren't getting more funding.

                      It genuinely feels like this is what they're actively going for, and I don't like it. But hey, I see the Camarilla as the "good" guys in the most conventional sense (In that they do their best to limit the population of blood sucking parasites and reign in their worst tendancies to make very little impact on the status quo)

                      (The Setites are the actual-good vampires)


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        I'm really, really, really having a hard time not seeing V5's Anarch/Camarilla conflict as anything other than.... Democrat and republican.

                        You've got vicious psychopathic warmongers deeply in the pockets of some terrible people, who espouse nice and agreeable ideas to look good to a younger demographic, and you've got vicious psychopathic war profiteers deeply in the pockets of terrible ideas who espouse conservative and now religious ideas, are slightly more less low-key about their clanism to appeal to an older and more established demographic. Also there's no serious third party option. In any case your schools aren't getting more funding.

                        It genuinely feels like this is what they're actively going for, and I don't like it. But hey, I see the Camarilla as the "good" guys in the most conventional sense (In that they do their best to limit the population of blood sucking parasites and reign in their worst tendancies to make very little impact on the status quo)

                        (The Setites are the actual-good vampires)
                        I take it as the much more cynical (but is it?) cyberpunks vs. Corporates.

                        The cyberpunks are composed of organized crime, street hustles, drug dealers, and mercenaries.

                        The Corporates are neo-feudalists old money families who live in an entirely different world from the punks.

                        The cyberpunks used to be employed by the corporates as a way to keep equilibrium.

                        Now? Now it's open warfare where the cyberpunks want to rule themselves.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          ...conflict as anything other than.... Democrat and republican.
                          It's more about order and control v. chaos. Or CONTROL and KAOS.

                          Also, the IP is written and produced to a large extent by people who are not American, so the Democrat and Republican metaphor would mean little to them.
                          Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 10-18-2020, 07:16 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                            It's more about order and control v. chaos. Or CONTROL and KAOS.

                            Also, the IP is written and produced to a large extent by people who are not American, so the Democrat and Republican metaphor would mean little to them.
                            To make a not inconsiderable joke.

                            "Goth never died in Europe, which is what's confusing as hell to American readers where it died by Revised and everyone pretended it was gone. So V5 being SUPER-GOTH confuses them to no end."


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • A Vér Hanaja

                              In the reedit of the book this section is titled “A vér hangja.” The text reads that this means voice of the blood in Hungarian.

                              As an aside, A Vér Hangja is also the title of a song by the heavy metal thrash Hungarian band Jogos Önvédelem (this popped up when I did a google search of the term). According to www.metal-archives.com the band is associated with “White Pride, Antisemitism, Nazism…” and produces music described as “pure anger through and through.”

                              Right. So I don’t know if the band, or the title of the track, influenced this section but both this section and the band are more or less operating from the same song book.

                              All that to say, in this section a bigoted vampire talks about the importance of good blood and how bad breeding has debased the quality of human blood, and that this is debasing vampires. While the narrator does not speak of any particular human race or group as inferior, it would be a surprise if the narrator did not have a lot of hang ups about race, and probably religion and sexuality as well. The narrator also espouses a lot of what sounds like Sabbat ideology about vampire superiority and listening to the will of vampire blood.

                              Anarchs are vampires, and vampires cannot be good people so Anarchs cannot be good people. Some of them are worse than others, and this one is worse than Garcia or Sterek.

                              It is useful, if not good, to be reminded, of the fact some Anarchs are going to be utter rubbish and that it will be fine if the PCs kill them.

                              Comment


                              • Mask and Masquerade

                                Near the beginning of this section is the following passage; “There were white kids who seemed to have learned their radical politics from old Rage Against the Machine lyrics and North Africans who could quote Frantz Fanon but had never heard of Salvador Garcia’s Anarch Manifesto. I thought it was the foundational text of the Anarch movement, but it turns out I was the only person there who had read it!”

                                This is one of the single best passages in the entire book. The Anarchs are, by definition, are everything the Camarilla is not – which means they are not remotely unified and do not possess a coherent communication network.

                                In this section a neonate vampire and aspiring Anarch is living in Paris while pretending to be a loyal member of the Camarilla. The Establishment forced the neonate to kill his sire and so he has no love or loyalty for the Ivory Tower. However, the Anarchs do not trust the neonate enough to include him in their plans, or help him flee the city if things go south for him.

                                The Sheriff demands to speak the narrator of this section and the narrator expects to be harshly interrogated and exacted – only to be congratulated by the Establishment for his temperament, connections to mortal finance and then trusted with “roughly half a billion euros of Camarilla properties.” That is almost $600 million.

                                The narrator still hates the Camarilla but decides to play the system, and funnel Camarilla funds and assets into the hands of the Anarchs.

                                This is a delightful section and should provide fodder and ideas for a lot of games.

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