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  • I am an Amature Story Teller

    Hi,

    (if this post needs to be somewhere specific, please let me know where and I will re-post it there, thanks)

    I love the mechanics of 5E, but my friends come from a history of DnD. As players they enjoy the freedom of killing anyone they want and seeing what impact that has on the story of the game. But from what I have read and seen, 5E is a very Story driven game and that its the job of the players to react to what is happening in the the story. I just have a lot of hurdles to account for with them.

    they like:

    1) chilling out in the taverns in DnD for hours
    2) freedom of choice of doing whatever they want, where ever they are
    3) don't like the inability to kill an SPC because they are important to the story
    4) they love maps and seeing the landscape and all the potential avenues of attack (but 5E has no movement speed like DnD so pathing is not a thing)

    Does anyone know, how I can accommodate these needs into a Vampire chronicle, how to accommodate DnD heavy players, is it possible and is someone able to provide me with a step by step please.

    Thanks for reading

  • #2
    there's not much stuff to kill in VtM (especially in v5), your players will get bored quickly

    in other gamelines, like Werewolf and Mage, there's a parallel spirit world where players can play DnD and space battles and stuff,
    in Vampire, the closest thing to DnD would be playing Black Hand members, but even they don't get much action...

    in other words, unless you plan to revamp the game completely, VtM is not the right game for your players, better play Vampires in DnD or Pathfinder or something


    -

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      there's not much stuff to kill in VtM (especially in v5), your players will get bored quickly

      in other gamelines, like Werewolf and Mage, there's a parallel spirit world where players can play DnD and space battles and stuff,
      in Vampire, the closest thing to DnD would be playing Black Hand members, but even they don't get much action...

      in other words, unless you plan to revamp the game completely, VtM is not the right game for your players, better play Vampires in DnD or Pathfinder or something

      Thanks for the help

      Comment


      • #4
        I think you could get a DnD group to enjoy vtm with some minor changes. I would let them do whatever they like, but bring the Cam-hammer down on them if they step outta line. I know my friends and I started with DnD, but once we realized that the stakes in vtm were so much higher for our characters, we never went back.

        As far as the mechanics of a game board is concerned: you can always just add in that little rule. In v5, there is already a rule that says Celerity adds to your base movement, so just say that everyone gets 20ft or however much per turn as a base.

        PS: the amount of things to fight in vtm is only limited by you as the ST. If you want a combat heavy game, then they can be a group of anarchs hunting werewolves or whatever. There aren't multiple monster manuals or anything, but there are an almost unlimited number of different combinations of clans and other supernaturals to serve as fodder.
        Last edited by JustAnotherCaitiff; 08-08-2020, 07:46 PM.

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        • #5
          It's not really an option in V5, but a Sabbat game can have lots of combat and fighting.

          Sit down with your group and explain that it's a different game than D&D that's more about role playing and stories rather than killing monsters. The issue I had with a player more familiar with D&D was a bit different, they were more used to being given a quest with clear goals rather than the more sandboxy environment I was running with in my current game. After some explanation that it's on them to come up with how to accomplish their goals, they seemed to get it. Explain to them, they can kill or attack anyone, but there are consequences for going about it in the wrong way. Maybe at first remind them when they want to go all murder hobo on another vampire or his ghouls. Once you've given them notice a few times, go ahead and let them kill someone without reminding them and let them deal with the consequences. If it's a vampire the prince will come down on them for violating the tradition of destruction. Starting a gun fight leads to cops being called, which can lead to all kinds of Masquerade violations if they try to fight the police with dash/body cam and bystander on cell phone footage as evidence even if they manage to kill all the cops. They might even wind up in torpor after a shootout with the police and cremated as a John/Jane Doe. Impress that they still can kill or attack characters, but just like in real life, there are consequences for their actions and they need to be subtle about it.

          It might be a good idea to also point out that the game rewards XP based on role playing and not kill count, too. No matter how many things you kill, it won't make you advance any faster.

          Now that said, if the group really wants a more D&Dish experience and this approach doesn't wind up being fun for them after trying it for awhile, you might consider a more directed combat heavy approach. Perhaps they could work for an Alastor taking out enemies of the Cam or something else that might allow a more violent and clear quest giving approach to the game. If they've been allowed to go crazy in D&D games and murder everyone without the city guard or local nobles sending people after them, than that's a wrong approach entirely. They definitely should have attracted some level attention even in D&D.

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          • #6
            If your players are the hack and slash types, VTM might not be the best option for them, honestly. I mean, they can be if they want, but assuming they are playing neonates, they'd get put down pretty damn fast by more elder vampires in the city worried about potential Masquerade breaches. Of all the game lines White Wolf has created, Vampire is likely the *least* hack and slash of them all.

            Also note that unlike D&D, players can't just depend on yet another dungeon crawl to fight a dragon and get loot. This isn't that type of setting at all. Even other White Wolf games are not about just ramping through a dungeon/mansion/bunker to kill everything in site for phat loot. There may be some hack and slash in these games, but it's usually for a damn good reason other than just the player's lust for goods.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by KarlB View Post
              If your players are the hack and slash types, VTM might not be the best option for them, honestly. I mean, they can be if they want, but assuming they are playing neonates, they'd get put down pretty damn fast by more elder vampires in the city worried about potential Masquerade breaches. Of all the game lines White Wolf has created, Vampire is likely the *least* hack and slash of them all.

              Also note that unlike D&D, players can't just depend on yet another dungeon crawl to fight a dragon and get loot. This isn't that type of setting at all. Even other White Wolf games are not about just ramping through a dungeon/mansion/bunker to kill everything in site for phat loot. There may be some hack and slash in these games, but it's usually for a damn good reason other than just the player's lust for goods.
              Wrong.

              Awakening: Diablerie Mexico
              Bloody Hearts: Diablerie Britain

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              • #8
                Originally posted by blailton View Post

                Wrong.

                Awakening: Diablerie Mexico
                Bloody Hearts: Diablerie Britain

                The fact that you have to reference a pair of 25 year old obscure sourcebooks might be an indication that these might be far and away the exceptions, not the rule

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                • #9
                  I agree with Pleiades. Vampire is 180 degrees the opposite of dungeon crawling. MAYBE you could get away with that in Vampire: Dark Ages, but even then it won’t be hardcore D&D.


                  The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                  • #10
                    The poster is in the same position as almost every RPG group that first played the game in the 1990s. We somehow adapted and adjusted, and we didn't have the benefit of 30 years of roleplay experience in the World of Darkness. I have confidence the poster can figure out how to run the game successfully.

                    These are my suggestions.

                    If combat against other vampires is an absolute must, you need a city setting that is contested. I recommend the traditional Camarilla versus Anarch like Chicago By Night. Just make it apparent at first that the fights are NOT to the death. Violence only to the point of whether group X succeeds at its task (which may only be holding their ground) or fails. Failure should lead to alternate punishment - loss of status, loss of domain, blood bond to Prince, public apology or swearing of loyalty, etc. No praxis seizure at this point. Prince firmly in charge. Anarchs more like rebellious teens than revolutionaries. You can always build up to a different situation once everyone has a feel for the game.

                    Conflict should be about other things than killing vampires or deciding who is in charge. It might be against mortal antagonists, other supernatural creatures, or activities highly suspect in vampire culture (auctions of unwilling feeding vessels, disputes over willing herds, competition over prime feeding territory, etc.)

                    Chilling out in taverns and interacting with NPCs is easily simulated with activities in Elysium or pseudo-Elysiums like prime hunting grounds available to all Kindred (the Rack, like the Succubus Club in Chicago By Night).

                    Freedom of Choice is all up to you as ST. Be flexible and willing to explore wherever the PCs take you. Don't railroad.

                    Kill if they need, but stress that Tradition of Destruction restricts death of other vampires to approval of Prince. Murder is not tolerated. At best, if they kill another vampire they must be very good at doing it secretly. Emphasize the NPCs operate under same restrictions. Encourage alternate resolutions of conflict/battle. Discuss with them what "victory" would feel like if they don't kill their foes. Let them know what unauthorized killing will mean in game so they understand the circumstances.

                    Vampire is not the best game for rules heavy tactical combat. It works best when die rolls are kept to minimum and only used to adjudicate situations when failure/success can't be determined by ST and PCs.

                    Create a sandbox, while preparing an "event" for each game session (or resolving a previous one), and explore each PC's backgrounds to customize play.

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                    • #11
                      So I'm just going to go through your list and throw out some thoughts. I've had a really rough day, so I apologize for the off-the-cuff nature of the remarks.

                      Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
                      1) chilling out in the taverns in DnD for hours
                      Totally doable. Elysium scenes are the heart and soul of a good Camarilla game. It's hanging out in Museums and chilling for hours instead of taverns, but it's the same idea. Your average Elysium is gonna have as rich a cast of characters as any tavern, and potentially more.

                      Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
                      2) freedom of choice of doing whatever they want, where ever they are
                      Also not a problem. Just like running Sandbox D&D, you just have to put in the time to know what happens if your PCs decide to go to the docks area just because. What's over there? Who controls it? How do they react to trespassers?

                      Vampire is going to be more socially oriented than combat oriented, generally speaking. You can still have a "trenchcoats and katanas" style game (they can be very fun), but when you go down to the docks unannounced the first thing that is likely to happen in a Vampire game is a negotiation of some sort rather than a fight.

                      Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
                      3) don't like the inability to kill an SPC because they are important to the story
                      Not a problem at all. No one should have plot armor, anyway. The thing with Vampire is that some of the NPC's are unkillable not because of plot armor, but because they can just flat-out curbstomp the PCs. (I understand that this may have been lessened in 5e) That's also just part of the game. You don't get it as much in D&D because there's no negotiating with the Tarrasque.

                      Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
                      4) they love maps and seeing the landscape and all the potential avenues of attack (but 5E has no movement speed like DnD so pathing is not a thing)
                      This is gonna be harder to pull off. It's going to take a lot of creativity and flexibility on your end, and your players are going to have to be OK with your winging it, rather than their being able to apply algorithmic reasoning to tactical situations.

                      Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
                      Does anyone know, how I can accommodate these needs into a Vampire chronicle, how to accommodate DnD heavy players, is it possible and is someone able to provide me with a step by step please.
                      Step 1: Get a sense for what everyone wants out of the game. Making sure you're on the same page at the outset is critical. Have everyone read whatever you think the important parts of the 5e rulebook are. (I haven't gone through it in enough detail to rattle off the sections by name yet.)

                      Step 2: Bust your ass developing your setting. Vampire's more work than D&D because it's important to understand not just what's there, but the history of how it came to be, because vampires have long memories.

                      Step 3: Prelude, Prelude, Prelude. (They still have those in 5e, right?) Integrate your PCs into the setting you've created. Give them individualized information and contacts and special background knowledge that other players don't have. Make them feel connected to the setting and to at least a few of the SPCs even before the game gets rolling.

                      Step 4: Let them fight if they want to fight. Vampires are notoriously hard to kill; and there are social consequences for doing so. Much better to just throw someone into torpor for a few months. Of course, when they come back out....

                      Anyway, that's the quick and the dirty. Hope it's marginally helpful at least.

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                      • #12
                        Black Fox I came from the opposite perspective. V20 was the first RPG I ever played. I didn’t try D&D till later.

                        Toa_Kiril I have the bad feeling your players don’t WANT NPCs who can “flat-out curbstomp them.” They want not only the right but the power to take on a Methuselah and have a fair shot of beating it. They’re more into combat and tactics than intrigue, romance and roleplaying. And except for Diablerie VtM doesn’t have leveling up like D&D does. Unless you make them Methuselahs (or at least elders) and put them in like a Dark Ages setting they probably won’t be happy.

                        Hope this helps 😊


                        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                        • #13
                          DnD is the most popular RPG in the world because it caters to the casual dabler but is capable of creating as vivid RPG as you like and are willing to work to create. In stark contrast, games like Vampire caters to a very specific, very niche audiance with a deep rooted assumption about the depth and amount of work players are willing to put into a game, aka, a lot.

                          You can use the system for example to create something akeen to buffy the vampire slayer or some more slasher like game but unlike DnD, it would likely be a lot more work rather then less work to create something this casual.

                          I agree with whoeversaid that there are better WOD systems for that sort of game, Vampire really is very focused on horror and politics in the world of darkness.

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