Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[V20.5] Best of Both - Headcanon Thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [V20.5] Best of Both - Headcanon Thread

    Hi there, Gryffon here!

    I’m sure some of y’all who have been around for a while recognize me. I’m the poster who really likes headcanon threads, overly long posts that felt shorter on my phone, and MULTI-RESONANCE LAYERED REALITY.

    Yeah, I’m that person. Anyway, the reason I’m writing this is that for a long time I’ve thought about a particular avenue of Vampire meta-thought and I haven’t seen a ton of it so I wanted to posit my ideas to the community and who knows, maybe even coin a term in the process.

    So, allow me to preface this by saying that I am not about edition warring of any kind and folks who want to shit post or edition war - first of all... come on fam - can do so elsewhere. Almost every edition of almost every game ever made has had its good and its bad and people who like it for that good should be respected; I play D&D 5e but I respect those who love the crunch of 3e or the avant-garde of 4e. Pathfinder also seems cool, but I’ve never had the chance to get into it.

    To bring this back to the World of Darkness, I love both of the modern editions of the game and admire every edition to come. I love that 1st edition started it all and built in foundational ideas. I love that second edition fleshed out the world and let you play trench coat ninjas in vampire if you wanted to. I love that revised edition groomed things and created a consistent image for the setting grounded in realism and dark themes.

    I love V20 for brining vampire back from torpor, for working to modernize the setting, and creating a metaplot agnostic form of the game that people could play however they liked. I also love V5 for breathing new life into a community, for brining Vampire back into the spotlight of the video game and RPG world, for giving so many people so many hours of enjoyment, and for adding new and interesting ideas to a setting that’s, like, 30 years old at this point and was made by goth dudes in the 90s who liked Anne Rice a lot.

    Now, I should make my bias clear and say that I prefer V20 of all the editions. It’s the one I know best and play the most - I love it. That’s not to say I dislike V5 though, I love it for all the reasons stated above and I try to stay up to date, even though I don’t pretend to understand the new mechanics at all (it took a while for me to understand 20th mechanics and even some of that’s hazy). Still, it’s important to say.

    I’m making this thread as someone who loves Vampire the Masquerade a lot, but who specifically plays V20 and enjoys the feeling of it. I’m making this thread as someone who appreciates what V5 has done, but knows that not all of the changes are for them. It’s not a judgement one way or another.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    I’m making this thread because I feel like so many of the ideas that V5 implements are interesting and that with a few alterations and pulling them back a few notches, they could be added as possible ‘Future Fates’ to V20 and enrich the experience of the game and push forward the metaplot.

    This thread was made so that I could get these ideas out of my head - future fate expansions to V20 based upon additions made to V5 and altered for use as continuation of the metaplot for V20. I’ve thought about these for awhile and wanted to make this thread to share my thoughts and see what others were thinking.

    I’m excited to see what others think and I know my thoughts won’t be for everyone, but I hope that people find them interesting and perhaps some of you will use them as inspiration or add your own thoughts.

    All that said, thanks to you all for reading this and for the good folks at White Wolf and Onyx Path for keeping my favorite fictional setting going over the years, through all the ups and downs.

    Explore The Night.

  • #2
    I’ll start the ball rolling here because this was the thought that made this whole idea occur to me, thinking about the Followers of Set or as you may know them...

    THE MINISTRY

    Yes, the egyptian gnostic culture that was probably inspired by Robert E. Howard novels and embraced a serpent motif that very arguably has no purpose being conflated with the god Set. You know them, you love them. They made religion dark and cool before the Sabbat was a glimmer in your sire’s eye.

    The Settites have long since been established as a vast network of sometimes only vaguely related cults and theological concepts. While the Theophidian Orthodoxy is the one we’re most familiar with - you know, the Set as Gnosticism folks - there have always been others established and dozens, if not hundred, of others implied to exist.

    Heck, part of revised’s settite metaplot was the plot hook that a Settite methuselah awoke to create a cult dedicated to the elimination of unorthodox cults and that the current circumstance of settite religions in play would probably follow chronicles that showcased the struggle between disparate settite cults and beliefs, while many cults turned against the Theophidians, and the Theophidians hoped to clean house for the Time of Judgement and the return of Set.

    As we all know, that no longer happened.

    So in V5, the Followers of Set have rebranded as the Ministry and are seeking to align themselves with the Anarch Movement, newly splintered away in full from the Camarilla and now a truly independent sect.

    It was thinking about all of these things and how I’ve always felt that more emphasis could be placed upon the diversity of Settite cults, that led me to this though.

    FUTURE FATES
    •Ministry, never heard of her (V20)
    -This is V20 and all prior editions

    •Check the new hotness (V5)
    -This is the V5 canon

    (Future Fates generally presents three options: 0%, 100%, and somewhere in between - I’m now going into the third option)

    •Have You Heard The Good Word? (V20.5)
    -Historically, the Settites have suffered from the distrust of both the Camarilla and Anarchs. The Sabbat didn’t distrust them - they hated them. So, for the clan, the game was to figure out ways to lure individual, desperate members of these secular sects towards them for aid. Surely, there had to be a better way.

    Both the Camarilla and Anarch Movement are nominally secular, despite the elders cults of the former and the religious movement of the latter. Both however, didn’t trust what the Settites were pushing. The Camarilla couldn’t openly work with those who preached of the antediluvians and the Anarchs learned from habit.

    How then to get close? Why, a variety of cult designed specifically for both sects of course. Enter the Ministry.

    The Ministry was polished, intellectual, and enlightened in the fashion of philosophical satanists. They built good will through advocacy of popular ideas - freedom amongst the Anarchs and stability amongst the Camarilla. They openly disdained the foolish superstitions of their primitive clan mates, explaining that blood gods were foolish myths unfit for modern unlife.

    They explained that they used Set simply as a symbol for a philosophical ideal - whether that ideal was Freedom From Tyranny or Control Over Self depended on who the Settite was selling themselves to. The Ministry openly mocked Noddism, posited modern theories, and worked diligently to always be palatable.

    The Ministry’s greatest strength was the flexibility of its doctrine, which could be shifted to conform whatever community the settite entered. This was particularly accepted in America, where people were already familiar with the concept of dozens of different specific beliefs existing as distinct groups under a common banner. The Settites could present whatever face worked best, knowing that external doctrine was always malleable - the truth of Set was found within after all.

    The Ministry was not without controversy from without or from within but the attacks against it by both the Sabbat and its parent clan worked well to endear the new movement to the Camarilla and the Anarchs. It may be centuries until a Settite is on the Inner Circle of the Camarilla, but some domains began to welcome the philosophers, particularly given their willingness to combat the Sabbat and Noddism. Anarchs similarly opened their arms to those seeking freedom from oppression, including religious oppression, and amongst the shiftless masses of Anarchs and Autarkis the Ministry would find many potential converts.

    Was the Ministry a ploy to infiltrate the sects? Was it a genuine gathering of religious and philosophical movements, forced to flee the oppression and persecution of its parent clan? Was it an independent movement or a cover for a network of alliances between unorthodox settite groups?

    You, the ST, may decide. Whatever suits your game is the best answer and whatever you find the most interesting.

    Remember - Your Will is the Only Law.
    Last edited by Gryffon15; 08-13-2020, 04:37 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just so we're clear, this thread is for alternate V20 future headcanon?


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

      Comment


      • #4
        That was the intention, specifically continuations of V20 inspired by V5.

        Although if folks have their own ideas as well, I encourage them to post those. This is a headcanon idea thread, I’m interested in people’s ideas and many heads tend to be better than one.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
          That was the intention, specifically continuations of V20 inspired by V5.

          Although if folks have their own ideas as well, I encourage them to post those. This is a headcanon idea thread, I’m interested in people’s ideas and many heads tend to be better than one.
          Okay, sure. Just was a little confused.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #6
            No worries, hope I could help clarify!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
              I’ll start the ball rolling here because this was the thought that made this whole idea occur to me, thinking about the Followers of Set or as you may know them...

              THE MINISTRY

              Yes, the egyptian gnostic culture that was probably inspired by Robert E. Howard novels and embraced a serpent motif that very arguably has no purpose being conflated with the god Set. You know them, you love them. They made religion dark and cool before the Sabbat was a glimmer in your sire’s eye.

              The Settites have long since been established as a vast network of sometimes only vaguely related cults and theological concepts. While the Theophidian Orthodoxy is the one we’re most familiar with - you know, the Set as Gnosticism folks - there have always been others established and dozens, if not hundred, of others implied to exist.

              Heck, part of revised’s settite metaplot was the plot hook that a Settite methuselah awoke to create a cult dedicated to the elimination of unorthodox cults and that the current circumstance of settite religions in play would probably follow chronicles that showcased the struggle between disparate settite cults and beliefs, while many cults turned against the Theophidians, and the Theophidians hoped to clean house for the Time of Judgement and the return of Set.

              As we all know, that no longer happened.

              So in V5, the Followers of Set have rebranded as the Ministry and are seeking to align themselves with the Anarch Movement, newly splintered away in full from the Camarilla and now a truly independent sect.

              It was thinking about all of these things and how I’ve always felt that more emphasis could be placed upon the diversity of Settite cults, that led me to this though.

              FUTURE FATES
              •Ministry, never heard of her (V20)
              -This is V20 and all prior editions

              •Check the new hotness (V5)
              -This is the V5 canon

              (Future Fates generally presents three options: 0%, 100%, and somewhere in between - I’m now going into the third option)

              •Have You Heard The Good Word? (V20.5)
              -Historically, the Settites have suffered from the distrust of both the Camarilla and Anarchs. The Sabbat didn’t distrust them - they hated them. So, for the clan, the game was to figure out ways to lure individual, desperate members of these secular sects towards them for aid. Surely, there had to be a better way.

              Both the Camarilla and Anarch Movement are nominally secular, despite the elders cults of the former and the religious movement of the latter. Both however, didn’t trust what the Settites were pushing. The Camarilla couldn’t openly work with those who preached of the antediluvians and the Anarchs learned from habit.

              How then to get close? Why, a variety of cult designed specifically for both sects of course. Enter the Ministry.

              The Ministry was polished, intellectual, and enlightened in the fashion of philosophical satanists. They built good will through advocacy of popular ideas - freedom amongst the Anarchs and stability amongst the Camarilla. They openly disdained the foolish superstitions of their primitive clan mates, explaining that blood gods were foolish myths unfit for modern unlife.

              They explained that they used Set simply as a symbol for a philosophical ideal - whether that ideal was Freedom From Tyranny or Control Over Self depended on who the Settite was selling themselves to. The Ministry openly mocked Noddism, posited modern theories, and worked diligently to always be palatable.

              The Ministry’s greatest strength was the flexibility of its doctrine, which could be shifted to conform whatever community the settite entered. This was particularly accepted in America, where people were already familiar with the concept of dozens of different specific beliefs existing as distinct groups under a common banner. The Settites could present whatever face worked best, knowing that external doctrine was always malleable - the truth of Set was found within after all.

              The Ministry was not without controversy from without or from within but the attacks against it by both the Sabbat and its parent clan worked well to endear the new movement to the Camarilla and the Anarchs. It may be centuries until a Settite is on the Inner Circle of the Camarilla, but some domains began to welcome the philosophers, particularly given their willingness to combat the Sabbat and Noddism. Anarchs similarly opened their arms to those seeking freedom from oppression, including religious oppression, and amongst the shiftless masses of Anarchs and Autarkis the Ministry would find many potential converts.

              Was the Ministry a ploy to infiltrate the sects? Was it a genuine gathering of religious and philosophical movements, forced to flee the oppression and persecution of its parent clan? Was it an independent movement or a cover for a network of alliances between unorthodox settite groups?

              You, the ST, may decide. Whatever suits your game is the best answer and whatever you find the most interesting.

              Remember - Your Will is the Only Law.
              Im actually fascinated by the God Set, so I’m kind of torn, fun fact that Set hated Apothis the giant snake In Egyptian Mythology that tries to swallow the sun every night. And was the only a god that was immune to his Hypnotic glare. You could do a interesting thing with that In your game.

              Comment


              • #8
                Aye, there’s definitely a place somewhere for analysis of Set’s relationship with Apophis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Alternate V5 Plots

                  1. Noctis Invictus: Hardelstadt is assassinated by Theo Bell but the reason is that it was done at the hands of Jan Pieterszoon as the two of them announce the creation of their own version of the Camarilla. They form a boardroom and suit version of the Anarchs as an alternative to rule by Princes and have made a Devil's alliance with Marcus Vitel. Many cities join into this economic and military alliance that presents a fourth alternative to the Anarchs/Camarilla/Sabbat trinity. Theo and Jan are put on the Red List as a result.

                  2. Lasombra Defection: The Lasombra defection was organized by Lucita of Aragon as she discovers that the Sabbat is pretty much unsalvagable by the time of 2018. The defection is something that happens in large part because of the failed Gehenna Crusade, the rising of the Lasombra Antediluvian, and the Second Inquisiton. The Masquerade must be preserved and Lucita is forced to once more face her slow return to Humanity.

                  3. Operation: Daystar: The Technocracy has abandoned its war against the Traditions because they have come to the conclusion they have been defeated. They since restructure themselves for the purposes of eliminating the other group of reality deviants in the world with the Camarilla. This is not because the Technocracy are concerned about all the humans that vampires have killed but the belief that them being "outed" by science is inevitable as well as the belief they will gain vast power from the removal of Kindred masters.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In my noddist theory/headcanon, Apophis was the original Antediluvian of the Setites. Diablerized by Set, who did an Augustus Giovanni on them. It explains a number of discrepancies, such as the Setite clan being much older than Set.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Those are cool ideas CTPhipps!

                      I’ve thought more about the Lasombra defection then I have the changes to the Camarilla, which I figured I’d need to do some more sit down reading to truly appreciate the direction that V5 chose to go, but these are both interesting ideas!

                      The idea of harnessing the sort of middle ground that’s always existed between Camarilla orthodoxy and Anarchs as well as friendly independents such as Vancouver or Cairo has always been interesting to me and this idea definitely gives an opportunity for that sort of thing. I’m tempted to call this something like ‘The Silicon Tower’ option, the Camarilla revamped for the 21st century through compromise with the Anarchs - similar to the Camarilla’s creation in a way.

                      (I’ve also mulled over the idea of replacing Theo Bell with Tyler for the Hardestalt plot if I used it - the Camarilla-Anarch War is a bit more then I usually want, but it’s definitely an interesting option imo; but again I need to sit down with the lore more)

                      I’ve thought a lot more about the Lasombra defection, so I can’t believe that tying in Lucita never occurred to me XD. Generally I used the Gehenna Crusade/Fourth Sabbat Civil War as an inciting incident for the defection, alongside personal ambition and rumors of the Founder - but I usually used Giangaleazzo and his defection and delivery of Milan to the Ivory Tower as the catalyst of many Ministers jumping ship. Lucita though is definitely an interesting angle.

                      As far as the Technocracy, I’ll admit I hadn’t been thinking about them much - both to focus on Vampire and because we don’t have much solid for M5 yet - but I can certainly see something like a ‘Project: Daystar’ existing within the Technocratic Union, even without the fallout of a Technocratic Civil War.

                      I’d never thought about that for Set Trollroot, but it is an interesting idea. I usually, for general WoD games that aren’t focusing on the Settites, go with him being embraced by a wanderer of the second generation (who may also be Ravnos’ and/or Osiris’ sire) with Apophis being a spiritual being who Set has a complex relationship with, both harnessing the being’s power for gain but also planning to betray it and become the true master (or ‘Demiurge’ if you will...); but that’s definitely also an interesting route.

                      Thanks to the folks who chose to post, definitely interesting stuff and I hope we get a lot of ideas flowing in here!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        the sabbat still has it share of cunning members,they are intelligent and can pass for human. but make no mistake,they have as much iin common as with human as a balck hole.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really hope they confirm Lucita in the Camarilla in the next supplement,
                          otherwise, we'll have to suffer through Phipps crying over his waifu for yet another decade or so


                          -

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I mean, sure Nicolas - fair enough, I guess I’m just confused what that has to do with this specifically.

                            Also Pleiades, I don’t know if you and CTPhipps are friends and that’s just how you razz one another - if so, I get that and my bad for saying this - but that’s kinda rude and I’d prefer if you didn’t talk about other posters like that in this thread.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                              I mean, sure Nicolas - fair enough, I guess I’m just confused what that has to do with this specifically.

                              Also Pleiades, I don’t know if you and CTPhipps are friends and that’s just how you razz one another - if so, I get that and my bad for saying this - but that’s kinda rude and I’d prefer if you didn’t talk about other posters like that in this thread.
                              It's fine, I've asked several questions related to Lucita in media and often make fun of myself regarding being her fanboy.

                              Hilariously, Dixie from Onyx Path had the same bit.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-13-2020, 07:39 PM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X