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Goratrix and the Turning of Tremere

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  • Houston810
    started a topic Goratrix and the Turning of Tremere

    Goratrix and the Turning of Tremere

    I've been a V:tM fan since a little before bloodlines came out and I've always played tremere (or venture). I've researched quite a bit but I can't seem to find a definite answer to a certain question.

    Goratrix was the guy responsible for finding a way to turn the clan into vampires. We know he experimented on vampires to complete his research in this regard.

    Do we know that those vampires were exclusively tzimisce? Do we know the vampire blood used in the final ritual or potion was exclusively tzimisce?

    My second question is do we know if the process was a ritual or a potion? Or both? I've seen canon references to both but just in passing.

    Are there any lore masters here that can quote me some sources or make a deductive argument based on sources to answer these?
    Last edited by Houston810; 08-17-2020, 01:48 PM.

  • Houston810
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Does it matter?

    I mean it matters to me just as point of knowledge. But it also matters to the clan because Tzimisce are all connected to the Eldest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Does it matter?

    Leave a comment:


  • Houston810
    replied
    Originally posted by Magus View Post
    The magi Tremere captured an ancient Tzimisce. His name varies: Gorinych (Libellus Sanguinis I), Roland (House of Tremere), Ioan (Guide to the High Clans). Goratrix forced him to Embrace two apprentices Tremere, and with their blood created the "potion of innmortality that became to Tremere and his disciples in vampires.
    Thank you, I'll look into these. Do you know any page numbers?

    Leave a comment:


  • Magus
    replied
    The magi Tremere captured an ancient Tzimisce. His name varies: Gorinych (Libellus Sanguinis I), Roland (House of Tremere), Ioan (Guide to the High Clans). Goratrix forced him to Embrace two apprentices Tremere, and with their blood created the "potion of innmortality that became to Tremere and his disciples in vampires.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    The Nagaraja were of course added to the game much later, but I've always liked the fact that the Tremere's theft of the vampiric curse has remained something that they seemed to have developed independantly, avoiding the temptation to retcon it as the Tremere having reverse-engineered what the Nagaraja did by experimenting on captive Setites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Houston810
    replied
    From: House of Tremere
    Originally posted by Houston810 View Post

    Page 22, House of Tremere,
    “Epistatia was recruited to assist him in casting his consciousness about the world, or perhaps through the ghostly realms of the underworld, in search of further information about vampires. Epistatia;s aid allowed Goratrix a series of breakthroughs. So much so that one might be forgiven for suspecting him of murdering Vincius in order to lure her under his sway). Goratrix contacted at least two different entities who provided him with crucial instructions. Having been the world tree of Ceoris, I recognized them as the Root Of All and Stars Beyond.”

    Page 22
    “In 1022, Goratrix announced to a select few that they were needed to aid him in his final experiment. Invited to join him were Tremere, Etrius, Meerlinda, and four other of our founder's closest associates. For seven days and seven nights the participants went without sleep, engaging in a series of rituals so complex that the instructions covered one thousand leaves of parchment. These were burnt in the course of the ritual. At the ceremony's climax, the participants fell upon the Embraced apprentices, Stephen and Pharus, tore them apart bare-handed and ate of their flesh and blood, like crazed maenads of ancient days. From violent delirium they fell into a state of ecstatic agony, and then into unconsciousness. When they awakened, hours later, they were unliving. Vampires.”

    Page 23
    “When humans drink the blood of vampires they become ghouls, half-mortal slaves to those whose blood they consume. But Goratrix and Epistatia’s otherworldly patrons had provided the means to ignore this law of vampirism. They’d also supplied power to the ritual.”

    Page 23
    “I waited for a Tzimisce spy to appear among our retainers, and sure enough, one did. I took over his hand as I now take yours, and wrote letters to his master, a vampire named Rustovitach. The letters repeated Goratrix’s account of the capture and slaying of his childe, Roland, the Embrace of Stephen and Pharus and the ritual of usurpation. The letters found their mark, and soon Rustovitch’s armies were besieging our chantries.”
    From this we can see and deduce that 8th generation Tzimisce Tremere were used in the seven day and seven night ritual that turned the mages into vampire. We also know that they in fact were NOT Embraced but transformed by magic in some way. And that perhaps the tremere found some way of overcoming the blood bond effects while doing this.

    More to come.

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I'm sure I've seen specific references to the Tzimisce vampires Goratrix used in the ritual somewhere. But the Tremere making concerted attempts to take Tzimisce domains by force in Eastern Europe is all that's really needed to justify the latter having the preeminent grudge against them, given their territoriality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Houston810
    replied
    Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
    The Dark Ages book, House of Tremere gets really into the details of the creation of the Tremere and their original base of operations, Ceoris. A couple of experimental victims were turned with the potion, then Goratrix, Tremere and the rest of the council reenacted the Maenad and devoured the unconscious turned victims. It seems that only Goratrix and Tremere were aware of what they were doing in the ritual.

    Thanks! I'll look into it!

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    The Tzimisce are the ones who historically hold the biggest grudge against the Tremere, so I believe they were at least the primary targets of that experimentation if not the only ones. Transylvania's Nosferatu and Gangrel got involved in the Omen War once they found out about the later experiments in Gargoyle creation.

    It makes sense that there would be some amount of mystery about a process that the Tremere at the top of the pyramid count as one of their most closely guarded secret recipes.

    Leave a comment:


  • baakyocalder
    replied
    There's a 'mature-themed' work called The Seduction of Goratrix on the Storyteller's Vault that provides one author's take on that history.

    I have not read that work; the work received good reviews from the Tabletop Gaming Club and one other purchaser (the only reviews were positive).

    Other houses of the Order of Hermes will care how the ritual worked--there might be something in passing in Blood Treachery, which was for Mage and had the Order of Hermes trying to attack the Tremere as magic was fading from the world.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrHappyAngry
    replied
    The Dark Ages book, House of Tremere gets really into the details of the creation of the Tremere and their original base of operations, Ceoris. A couple of experimental victims were turned with the potion, then Goratrix, Tremere and the rest of the council reenacted the Maenad and devoured the unconscious turned victims. It seems that only Goratrix and Tremere were aware of what they were doing in the ritual.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Houston810 View Post
    I've been a V:tM fan since a little before bloodlines came out and I've always played tremere (or venture). I've researched quite a bit but I can't seem to find a definite answer to a certain question.

    Goratrix was the guy responsible for finding a way to turn the clan into vampires. We know he experimented on vampires to complete his research in this regard.

    Do we know that those vampires were exclusively tzimisce? Do we know the vampire blood used in the final ritual or potion was exclusively tzimisce?

    My second question is do we know if the process was a ritual or a potion? Or both? I've seen canon references to both but just in passing.

    Are there any lore masters here that can quote me some sources or make a deductive argument based on sources to answer these?
    1. The implications are he used multiple vampires for the process but definitely Tzimisce were experimented on. I don't think it's ever been confirmed, though.

    2. It was probably both with a ritual used to enchant the potion.

    Leave a comment:

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