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When did Cain died prior to meeting the angels

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  • When did Cain died prior to meeting the angels

    Hi

    I'm starting to read the VTM books

    Dunno where i'll go with that, will see

    Anyhow, I'm starting to put myself stuff together to give myself ideas...
    Some of the notions is a good thing to stay opens as you can lean to either ways to make your own world

    Although I would tend to say that this portion can be a big one as other contents might contradict one way or the other....

    Upon the last curse, it is said that he will always be as he was upon his death; essentially saying that he died at some point (Could be when this was said)
    The question becomes, did he died when he was cast out of Eden. Possibly saying that the darkness he is in, is the land of Wraith Oblivion Shadowlands or some sort of copy of the world in the darkness.... until he meet Lilith and she help him see in a way that he comes back to the land of the living...(drinking her blood)
    Or did he died drinking her blood...

    So far, I'd tend to say, could be both ways but the simplest one is to pick the second option as it doesn't truly change any dynamics....but the second offers maybe options out there in the end...
    Last edited by AngeliusMefyrx; 08-17-2020, 10:24 PM.

  • #2
    No, he died the moment when the Angel of Death Uriel proclaimed God's final curse: "You will drink only blood. You will eat only ashes. You will be always as you were at death. Never dying, living on."

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    • #3
      But "You will be always as you were at death" does not mean he just died...which you took from page 33.....which was the point of my question, was it drinking the blood or was he already

      I was reading again some passage in the book of nod because I had skratched some notes that the land of nod was not the mortal world

      Page 46
      "For the passing of an age, he lived in the land of Nod" (some times was spent with Lilith)
      "And so he returned to the world of mortals"

      Therefor meaning the land of Nod is not the land of mortals but also meaning that he came from there, deduction would tell me that Eden is
      Describe as a land of wanderer, it could be that zone in between death that (I believe Wraith Oblivion) is used for (although I haven't read those books yet)
      He also escaped Lilith's demon from hunting him too which adds to the idea that this is not the mortal world

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      • #4
        Not trying to be for or against any point of view, but you have to remember that early languages lacked many aspects of communication that we think of as required today. While it is entirely possible that the spoken languages were more extensive than the written versions, some early languages seem to only consist of a few hundred words, rather than the tens or hundreds of thousands we are used to these days.

        This is a round about way of saying that if you read the word "lived" in an ancient transcript, it could have been incorrectly translated or have had multiple meanings in the original language. Kind of like how in the Game of Thrones tv show they made mention that the phrase "the Prince that was promised" came from old Valerian, which used a royalty term that wasn't gender specific like Captain or General, thus it would more accurate to suggest the translation would be "the Prince or Princess that was promised".

        Humans have been around for nearly 300,000 years and we still have issues communicating with each other. The curse of Babel indeed.

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        • #5
          Everything is up for interpretation and it is written intentionally this way to give flexibility for the GM to do whatever he wants. Instead of having a hard line, you have many possible outcome... I do understand that. I wanted to make sure that no other work from VTM would have answered that question as it is something that can change your conception of the world from skratch...

          in the end I just end up making my mind of it....and if hosting another game, I can simply do the opposite

          The world of fey (read a bit on changeling the lost) after all could be an equivalent to god in a scenario...or he could be the most powerful fey...its hard to define relation between god and the fey from what i've read so far...but everything in due time...
          Last edited by AngeliusMefyrx; 08-18-2020, 01:17 AM.

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          • #6
            Most probably he never died since his blood was never drained and given as every other vampire is created. He might experience death as he sleeps during the day, that's all.

            Perhaps he let himself die fighting "insert miscellaneous mythical creature" in order to fully understand God's curse.

            - Saga

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saga View Post
              Most probably he never died since his blood was never drained and given as every other vampire is created. He might experience death as he sleeps during the day, that's all.

              Perhaps he let himself die fighting "insert miscellaneous mythical creature" in order to fully understand God's curse.

              - Saga
              Damn that makes me think their is a hidden rival splat of supernaturals caused by the 7 fold curse from killing Caine, or a twist that the 2nd Gen were embraced because they each killed Caine.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                Damn that makes me think their is a hidden rival splat of supernaturals caused by the 7 fold curse from killing Caine, or a twist that the 2nd Gen were embraced because they each killed Caine.

                God, literally, please no. (Made me laugh though)

                - Saga

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by AngeliusMefyrx View Post
                  Upon the last curse, it is said that he will always be as he was upon his death; essentially saying that he died at some point (Could be when this was said)
                  The question becomes, did he died when he was cast out of Eden. Possibly saying that the darkness he is in, is the land of Wraith Oblivion Shadowlands or some sort of copy of the world in the darkness.... until he meet Lilith and she help him see in a way that he comes back to the land of the living...(drinking her blood)
                  Or did he died drinking her blood...
                  One point of info on this - and working from memory and mainly Revised books - Cain was never in Eden, he was born after Adam and Eve where cast out of Eden.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by babi_gog View Post

                    One point of info on this - and working from memory and mainly Revised books - Cain was never in Eden, he was born after Adam and Eve where cast out of Eden.

                    page 24 of book of nod, Adam says to Cain "as I was cast out, so shall you be", would make sense now

                    Adam and Eve were cast out from Eden to the land of mortals
                    Cain was cast out to the land of Nod, page 24
                    Page 46, Cain return to the land of mortals, the land now occupied by Seth's Children
                    Last edited by AngeliusMefyrx; 08-25-2020, 12:03 AM.

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