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about brunhild and the valkyrie and House Aesin

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  • about brunhild and the valkyrie and House Aesin

    I'm just wondering about their relationship cuz they're both Norse and since changelings fight against the jotunn the fomorians potential for crossover?

  • #2
    And if you don't know anything about them here https://changelingthedreaming.fandom...ki/House_Aesin https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Waelkyrige https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Brunhilde

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    • #3
      Aaaaactually in my home setting the Walkyrie and Disir are Kiths and they are mostly found in House Aesin. With Brunhilde being one of their Legendary leaders, and some suspect she has yet to reincarnate having returned from Arcadia with Aesin, while others believe she underwent the Changeling Way or is even a Lost One.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by the viking anarch View Post
        I'm just wondering about their relationship cuz they're both Norse and since changelings fight against the jotunn the fomorians potential for crossover?
        1. Aesin don't claim to be the Aesir but Nordic elves that are descended from them. The Aesir to them are godlike Fae like the Tuatha De Daanan and not vampires.

        2. Either the Gangrel are the inspirations for the myths that created the Aesir or Gangrel Odin took the name of the "real" All-Father and impersonated him before Embracing his Valkyries.

        Either way, I doubt either would recognize the other as anything but imposters.

        To use a sci-fi analogy, the Aesin would think the Gangrel to be no more the Aesir than the Gould are the Egyptian pantheon.

        Mind you, I'd love to see the Followers of Set fight the Gould and claim Set was against alien invaders all along.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-20-2020, 12:52 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          I've read somewhere that the FAE and vampire have interacted since the dark ages I find it hard to believe that the Aesin and valkyrie have not interacted especially since the all high the leader of the valkyrie had a war with the get of fenris https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Fenrir_Wars and we know that the Aesin interacted with the garou enslaving some of the get of fenris since the garou and the Aesin interacted and the all high and the garou also interacted I find it hard to believe that all The supernaturals of Scandinavia didn't have some sort of relationship
          Last edited by the viking anarch; 08-20-2020, 02:33 AM.

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          • #6
            Well, older books claimed just the Waelkyrige were vampiric. "The Ten Commandments were not any less divine for being set in stone", to use a citation straight from Clanbook: Gangrel. The All-High was a later setting addition, wholy of the VtDA/Revised era, if memory tricks me not.

            So i would say the real question from a canon consistency/crossover perspective is "does one need the All-High in their games or would the Waelkyrige as supposedly blessed/cursed by the gods themselves sufice?" In fact, considering Brunhild is described in myth as a valkyrie cursed/put under a magical sleep and oaths, it might be possible for her to have been both, an Aesin Sidhe made vampire by Odin's curse/sleep, for example.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 08-21-2020, 05:42 AM.

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            • #7
              I say their is a “real” Odin and that Gangral was just imporsating the god.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                Well, older books claimed just the Waelkyrige were vampiric. "The Ten Commandments were not any less divine for being set in stone", to use a citation straight from Clanbook: Gangrel. The All-High was a later setting addition, wholy of the VtDA/Revised era, if memory tricks me not.

                So i would say the real question from a canon consistency/crossover perspective is "does one need the All-High in their games or would the Waelkyrige as supposedly blessed/cursed by the gods themselves sufice?" In fact, considering Brunhild is described in myth as a valkyrie cursed/put under a magical sleep and oaths, it might be possible for her to have been both, an Aesin Sidhe made vampire by Odin's curse/sleep, for example.
                I believe Wolves of the Sea was the first mention of him, well my first encounter anyways.

                And he is a totally a charlatan. If he was a Malkavian I could at least believe he "believed" he was the real
                Alföðr.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                  I believe Wolves of the Sea was the first mention of him, well my first encounter anyways.

                  And he is a totally a charlatan. If he was a Malkavian I could at least believe he "believed" he was the real
                  Alföðr.

                  Personally, i would be perfectly fine with deleting him and leaving the matter of Brunhild as embraced or cursed up to STs. Maybe, if i was in the mood to add some extra milleage to their role beyond mere belief, have one of them possess Weather Control, that could go a long way toward letting them toward supporting Fortitude in letting them join the occasional battlefield during the day and a degree of necromancy, either just corpse rising or bringing some ghosts, preferably with strong fetter use, for some extra occult justification to loot/hoard collecting.

                  Hmmm, might even take things a step further, by making some band of necromancer/corpse-eating werewolf band, called Litter of Garm, that might or not relate to tales of Get enslaved by the Sidhe....
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 09-13-2020, 04:35 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    .

                    Mind you, I'd love to see the Followers of Set fight the Gould and claim Set was against alien invaders all along.
                    You know that's probably what they'd do.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • #11
                      Speaking as a norse pagan, if you want elves in your game then CtD is basically the worst splat you could pick to do it with. Elves are the ancestor spirits of my people, the norse/north germanics, and thus anything fae can never be one. Your best option for portraying them would be using MtA20th's standard chargen.

                      Elves also aren't associated with the Aesir, but with the Vanir. With Freyr as king of one of the three elven realms(Alfheimr to be specific).

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                      • #12
                        There's no canonical relationship. While early World of Darkness encouraged cross development between the game lines, by the time Changeling 2nd edition came out, there was an obvious attempt to play it down and eventually it was denied any game line had anything to do with other game lines. This is why we saw many crossover elements purged in Revised. I think it was because of issues like you brought up - which line "owned" the canonical depiction of the Norse Pantheon. Was it Vampire with its Gangrel Valkyries? Werewolf with its Get of Fenris? Mage with its paradigm setting and umbral adventures that could reach an Asgard in the High Umbra? Changeling with its Fae Houses including the Aesin? All would have their own ideas and preferences which conflicted with the others.

                        Is the Gangrel named the All High the "real" Odin, or is there an Umbrood who is it. And did that Umbrood come before or after the All High was created? Which was first?

                        5000 to 6000 years ago there was no Odin or Thor. No Zeus or Poseidon. No Jupiter or Diana. No Taranis or Lugus. No Perun or Veles. No Indra or Varuna. None of the mythological gods or goddesses of the Indo-European peoples we know today existed. Instead, somewhere in the grasslands of Central Eurasia the earliest Indo-European speakers believed in gods like Dyeus Pater (the Sky Father), Hausos (the dawn goddess), and the Divine Horse Twins. And we have no independent verification of them. They're just reconstructions based on linguistics. These were the antecedents of all the mythological gods we know from the mythology of Europe, Persia, and India. And obviously the various Indo-European speaking peoples eventually invented very different gods and goddesses over the intervening thousands of years.

                        The Greeks ended up combining the Sky Father and the Thunder God, and then added a bunch of unrelated Middle Eastern deities. Somewhere along the way, the Germanic peoples turned Mercury into a very different god and gave him a brand new name - the furious one. Why did they do that? Nobody knows in real life. But maybe you have your own answer in your own games.

                        So this is something left to the STs of individual chronicles. So do whatever you think is right - what provides the most opportunity for fun for your game.

                        I will share what I've done in my own chronicles, because I struggle with things like why do the Get of Fenris worship Fenris when in real mythology he's the brother of Jormungandr who is the enemy of all Garou. Obviously human mythology is wrong in the World of Darkness, so confusion reigns. Every ST and every Player will have their own ideas and preferences. But if you are the ST, you can at least define the truth in your own game. So this is what I've done in mine.

                        First, the basis of actual pagan religions is the spirit world which deal with the spirit Incarna of Garou. They're primal and came first before any High Umbra Umbrood. Ordinary humans picked up some things from the Garou and early Dreamspeakers. However, over time human religions diverged from this as a result of ignorance, people coming up with their own ideas (the equivalent of early fan fiction), and encountering other supernatural creatures.

                        At some point, the Germanic speaking peoples encountered a Gangrel vampire that we know today as the All High. He was the basis of Odin, and over many centuries he eventually became considered a god and usurped the worship of whatever spirit was the basis for Hermes and Mercury and Hermod (among many others). That vampire learned a lot of useful things and was exceedingly powerful. So when he encountered some powerful fae (House Aesin in Changeling, but which I renamed House Vanin, because the elf antecedents in Norse mythology is obviously the Vanir and not the Aesir - the actual Vanir is an equivalent name for the Tuatha de Danaan, so the Vanin are a step down from the Vanir), they were willing to strike a deal. So House Vanin became allies with the All High, who taught them all sorts of forbidden knowledge. This of course pissed off the Garou who had the Fenris spirit as a totem, and they sword a blood oath against the fae of House Vanin (this is my reconciliation of the "all Fenrir have a blood oath of vengeance against the SIdhe" which showed up in later Changeling lore. I always thought that was a bad idea because it came so late in the WoD and could really screw up a lot of Werewolf games which may have had Fenrir PCs in packs of Stags who had a ban to help the Fae. So I severely limited this blood oath to a specific group which would also explain the animosity of Fenris Wolf to the Norse Gods in human mythology.) The alliance between the fae House of Vanin and the All High and his childer (the Gangrel Valkyries) is why human mythology shows both Odin and Freya having valkyries in their service. And the corrupted blood of the High All combined with the fae of House Vanin eventually gave birth to the vampire bloodline of the Lhiannan and their Discipline of Ogham (even though the Dark Ages game clearly used Celtic as inspiration instead of Norse, I thought it fit). The spirit Fenris and his Garou children (the Get of Fenris) intend to kill all these creatures during the Apocalypse (aka Ragnarok) because they consider all of them to be enemies of Gaia.

                        And of course, while all this "real" history was going on that formed the basis of Norse Mythology, human belief ended up creating the Norse Pantheon in the High Umbra, and if any modern neo-pagans or what not in Mage try to contact the Norse pantheon that's what they contact and worship. Not the actual "real" people who were behind the myths and legends.

                        So House Vanin (Aesin) in my games is kind of shitty. Yes, the fight the Joturns (aka the Fomorians aka the Volag of the Garou). But they also allied with an obviously Wyrm tainted vampire at one point long ago, and pissed off the Garou by doing so. But that actually makes sense since in Norse mythology Odin is a big jerk, and the remaining Norse Pantheon isn't much better.

                        Feel free to steal any of this if it helps for your own games, as well as ignore all of it or some of it.

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