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Recovering blood and Sustainable Feeding

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  • Recovering blood and Sustainable Feeding

    In V20 it says that humans recover their blood points at a rate of one per day. a unit of plasma supposedly recovers after a blood donation in 24 hours. But you need 4-6 weeks to recover the red blood count/Cells (RBC)

    So what does this mean for a vampire with a close herd?

    Can you take one uni t of blood from them each day with no serious long term side effects; the Vampire only taking the plasma and leaving the red blood cells in the body at an amount appropriate to the victim's plasma levels? This supports the idea of blood dolls and works well with the Masquerade. Perhaps it doesn't taste as good without the RBCs, but you can keep yourself sustained with a small stock. On the other hand this doesn't have the movie famous -fall sick and eventually die- thing that vampire feedings are associated with (Unless that vampire drinks more than one unit per night) but I'm fine with that (Dracula did after-all influence vampire fiction with red herrings, the game is about the Masquerade, and the option to overfeed is still there)

    The most optimistic policy is that Vampire feedings have a mystical quality to them that allows the victim to recover their RBCs at the same rate as they recover plasma.

    Another possibility is that the plasma recovers fast and the Vampire gains sustenance from the plasma, but as the RBCs recover slower the vampire drinks a thinning blood with a suffering mortal who will deteriorate with each drink (Even if the 'units' of potential vitae in their body hovers between 9 and 10). Thus a sustainable vampire needs 4-6 weeks to drink from his victim and thus needs a herd of 28-42 if we want them to sustainably feed from only their herd for whatever reason (using blood only to rise each night) which makes for some manageable but potentially risky herd control. This makes singular blood dolls rather unsustainable and a low RBC corpse with plenty of plasma is suspicious.

    Last possiblity is that the rules are crazy and we should go with completely realistic blood recovery times (IE 4-6 weeks assuming you just drank one unit)

    What do you peoples think?


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

  • #2
    Isn't it more the life force rather them plasma, cells or platelets?


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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    • #3
      That might be the magic behind it, but the life force is attached to literal blood in any case.


      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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      • #4
        Mayby in the World of Darkness humans just regenegerate much faster.
        Edit: But yeah this is one of the reasons why the people in my group are happy, that the problem is solved with a mage partner that is giving blood supply via Magick.
        Last edited by Koronus; 08-22-2020, 05:39 PM.


        As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
        First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
        Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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        • #5
          I think this is perfectly reasonable, though I note that if you're going to feed off someone regularly, you should ghoul them. I'd argue that such a condition under V5 rules would result in the possibility of recovering daily.

          It still means that you should have a herd as a supplementary source of blood than a primary.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            In general, yeah, you should ideally use your herd as a suplement, but that's hardly relevant to answering the op. It could be safer or easier to rely on a herd given circumstances. Imagine you're a Ventrue with a narrow feeding type or a vampire in a small settlement or you're a shut in because... .'just don't play such a character' is hardly constructive.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #7
              I'd say they recover 1 blood point (the life force) per day
              and they need several days or weeks (I don't know) to recover the physical blood,
              vampires drinking plasma is *ugh*

              that's one reason I don't get people who don't like cost-free disciplines and 1BP celerity/potence,
              that's also one reason kuei-jin breath feeding and osmosis are so great


              -

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                In general, yeah, you should ideally use your herd as a suplement, but that's hardly relevant to answering the op. It could be safer or easier to rely on a herd given circumstances. Imagine you're a Ventrue with a narrow feeding type or a vampire in a small settlement or you're a shut in because... .'just don't play such a character' is hardly constructive.
                Well I'm saying your suggestion is really good for saying why vampires HAVE to go out and hunt. Also, good roleplaying opportunity. A guy wants to just feed on a select group but they get sicker...and sicker...


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  I've given blood in the past, and was always told I wasn't allowed to give more blood for at least 6 weeks. Assuming there's significant extra 'safety' time added to that, I'd say the body actually fully regens lost blood from donating a half liter of blood after maybe a couple of weeks. At best, I'd say a mortal regens the blood from a two hunger feeding after maybe a month at the *earliest*. Even with a huge herd, vampires would still need to do a bit of hunting here and there so they don't end up killing their herd by feeding from them too often.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    That might be the magic behind it, but the life force is attached to literal blood in any case.
                    Yes and no.

                    An Elder vampire who has 50+ blood points only has about 10 pints of physical blood in their system. So while blood is the medium by which the life force is transferred, there isn't a direct volume to power ratio, thus by extension not an easy way to gauge recovery.

                    This makes for headaches when trying to math out certain things, but it also means you can do interesting story stuff like what happens if the herd lives in a building built on a node or dragons nest, thus essentially super charging the blood or causing faster recovery.

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                    • #11
                      My guess would be (speaking in mage or thaumaturgy terms) there is a sympathetic connection between blood and magical power (quintessence to borrow the mage term but I suppose mana/chi works if we want to use other systems, particularly KoTE). IIRC.. Blood/vitae aren't necessarily the same thing qualitatively (mass/volume of blood can differ from number of BPs, the vampire converts consumed blood into Vitae via supernatural means (it also being a form of tass in Mage and a vehicle for absorbing Chi in KotE) the vampire is actually draining the supernatural potential (soul/life force/whatever) out of a human through the physical act of draining the blood (because that's what belief shaped by a ton of legends and myths tells- again borrowing a bit from MtA.)

                      Given that I don't think RBC's count much from a supernatural/mystical perspctive and only the 'red stuff does' and however long it takes to replenish it. As Pleadies notes this would likely be 24 hours (that's what Revised core rules gave as I recall) so that would be your baseline (someone could change this if they wanted, of course.)

                      There are a few caveats maybe. One is the implied (or in some sources stated) correlation between BPs and health levels, especially in humans. Revised said you could consume ~20% (2 BPs) of a human's blood without serious harm (and based on what I recall of the lethal injury healing times) several more BPs up to injured/wounded in a human and still stay within that 24 hour vitae recovery threshold depending on how you interpret the rules (the healing time may be independent of BP recovery to an extent - you could recover the '20% without harm' BPs and still stay within the recovery time threshold to mauled. There would still be other possible implications but it would be sustainable, I think?) I think it will depend on how you decide the abstraction works and your ST's views.

                      The other issue is the thin blooded. I vaguely recall they can survive on animal blood and still produce a 'lesser' vitae (in BP terms half potency for the volume of blood) but even half-vitae is still more potent than human blood (hence Netchurch theorizing about Thin bloods as an alternative supply source for elder vampires in TtB) Even though animals have fewer BP relative to their blood volume (less supernatural potential) its easier to find/feed off animals in a sustainable manner. And since thin bloods can't create Ghouls or blood bonds it lacks the dangers usually associated with vitae. I'm not sure this would replace vampires (animals have a fraction of the BP of humans, even larger ones and the BP/mass ratios are going to favor humans) it offers a way for nonhuman blood sources to supplement human blood. Example: There are something like 990 million cattle this year, nearly 700 million pigs this year, and about 24 billion chickens. (There's actually 130 billion mammals estimated according to wikipedia but that can include some very small ones so the actual 'viable' population but that sets an approximate upper limit) - I should note these numbers for pigs and cattle are lower than they were a few years ago when they were something like 2.5 billion combined. If you took just one BP from each pig/cow that would be several billion BP easily (even if it takes them longer to replace that BP than a human.) A chicken is probably worth less than a BP (Between 1/2 and 1/4 I'd guess) but with more than 9 billion chickens killed each year according to Google that's several billion more BP annually. If a vampire consumes several BP a night and you figure 200K Vampires that's still only around half a billion BP a year at most. (Culturally and aesthetically it probably wouldn't be as pleasing as feeding off humans, but tenatively it seems sustainable. And possibly easier to hide.)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                        I'd say they recover 1 blood point (the life force) per day
                        and they need several days or weeks (I don't know) to recover the physical blood,
                        vampires drinking plasma is *ugh*

                        that's one reason I don't get people who don't like cost-free disciplines and 1BP celerity/potence,
                        that's also one reason kuei-jin breath feeding and osmosis are so great
                        Well this kind of difficult because they actually do this says V20 too though the plasma of humans is having more substance than that of animals. We can say how much blood of humans they actually drink with defining how much blood contains a plasmabag. How much contains one because one full bag is one BP.


                        As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                        First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                        Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          But would it not be the RBC linked with the 'life force' rather than the plasma? Being low on red blood cells means there's less oxygen and 'life' in you. You'll only notice a unit or two if you exert yourself, but you'll notice more than that all-the-time. The plasma is really just the stuff for the red blood cells to be pumped around in.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mayby it is an translation error. Can someone tell me, if it is in english Plasmabag too or there Blood bag? I mean the list of how much each has blood right above the generation stats, it is Seite 270 in german.


                            As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                            First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                            Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In-narratively, when a vampire feeds they are rarely, if ever, actually draining all the blood (or even half of it, by volume) out of a given (mortal) victim -- the energy/life force transfer is essentially partially physical (there needs to be substantial, though not overwhelming, amounts of blood) but equally or more so metaphysical (especially in the case of strong-blooded -- 7th or better generation/potency vampires). (Not near my books right now as most are in storage, but there were occasional references to this in different instances; the one that comes to mind for me was in Dark Ages where it was cited how the loss of a BP was rarely as impactful on a human/victim as losing a pint of blood as "...the curse is efficient...".) This degree of relative abstraction is why a given vampire might drink several pints from a mortal, consuming all of their life/vitae as their heart stops beating and their life fades, but said victim still have several pints of blood left in their bodies... even as their is no *vitae*/power in the blood that remains.


                              I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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