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The mindsets of old Vampires?

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  • The mindsets of old Vampires?

    The On the White Wolf Subreddit people where discussion the impossibility of Vampires being Racist and Sexist,

    Which I fine hilarious especially people that don't Want politics in their white wolf game, which is like have you read the books.
    Fun fact theirs no such thing as being “Apoltical” that’s just means you support the status quo.
    And I thought about the different mind sets that existed in the past and not just racism and sexism,

    Like I don’t think someone from 11th century would care about race per say. But they would care a lot more about their religion. As “race” wasn’t a concept back then.

    Also why Homosexuality wasn’t liked, it wasn’t like the worst thing you could do ever, like in modern fundamentalist circles.

    And I got to thinking about how different past peoples world views where.

    Like through a lot of Western history and other places that I know even less about, a Strict hierarchy was considered good and right . With Serfs at the bottom and the king at the top.

    Compared to modern western culture focused on individualism and the dislike of in born Hierarchy.

    So you have to research the world view of someone born in 17 century America or 9 century Poland. And like most vampires sired between the 15th and 19th century where probably in some way involved with the Ethnic cleansing of Indigenous folks. Because hatred against them was so normalized. With some Brunja as the exception,

  • #2
    vampires are described as sexist and racist in all editions except Revised and, I think, V20

    revised had it that young vampires still had their biases,
    but after a few years of unlife you stop caring about mortal divisions (there's no difference between a female and male vampire),
    and you focus on vampiric divisions (Clan, sect, generation, age, faith etc)


    -

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
      The On the White Wolf Subreddit people where discussion the impossibility of Vampires being Racist and Sexist,
      My view is that vampires tend to be ahead of the curve on progressive politics because humans all eventually become just bags of blood to them.

      And female or other race vampires are able to enforce their equality to them.

      I.e. Try to tell Helena she's just a woman and she will either just make you stop believing it or you will eat your own fingers.

      There are SOME racist and sexist vampires like Balthazar or Dieter but they have to really work at it.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4



        My own thinking is that a vampire should carry the world view they held in life, along with their worst personality traits, more or less preserved in amber. That, and a mixture of ugly entitlement and bitter resentments they develop across the decades.

        Edit: The racism and sexism would be somewhat hidden under good decorum and manners, but would still be present.

        However, this creates a problem in that an NPC who was sexist or racist in life would be a sexist and racist vampire. Which can turn the game ugly. So understandably this element is removed from the game. Even if it means the villains work a lot like Captain Planet villains, or creatures who are evil for the sake of evil.
        Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 08-22-2020, 05:33 PM.

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        • #5
          From my campaingexperiences it is kind of depending on when and where and kind of depending on how high humanity is.
          For example in my campaing, the 4500+ Old Clan Tzimisce with her 1500 year old husband is so old, that she is still in the believing, that except the nobles any kind of mortal believing himself above is just megalomania. She understands that noble man may see them above woman but if some other dares to try it - on her land - she will give him hell.

          My 1900 year old Caitiff still lived in the roman empire so for him it is just natural that woman are only the wifes aka Secretary and Accountant for the Patriam Potestas but in comparison he finds any kind of sexual shame religion hate or homophobia madness because homosexuality and freedom of religion is just natural unless the religion is something that encourages being bloodthirsty.


          As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
          First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
          Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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          • #6
            It'd be very natural to embrace a duality

            with vampires, yeah, see the Helena example above. what may be a tiny lady can throw you around like a ragdoll.
            you may get aome biggoted views concerning clans, but there's always someone very smart and very powerful sonewhere up the line, and it's wise to er on the aide of caution.

            When it comes to mortals: The more backwards, regressive and devided mortal society is the better it is for vampires: you want huge wealth inequality. you want corruption. you want the police to be thugs. you want marginalized groups because they are easier to feed off and you have less chance of your crime being reported if people are suspicious of the police... even if you were a part of a marginalized group, you can take advantage of it as a vampire.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
              My own thinking is that a vampire should carry the world view they held in life, along with their worst personality traits, more or less preserved in amber. That, and a mixture of ugly entitlement and bitter resentments they develop across the decades.
              I don't think many would live very long given the Oldest VampiresTM are ones vampires in the past couple of centuries would be racist against. Wouldn't work out for them.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #8
                For my two cents on the matter, I think that the idea of "isms" is a modern construct rather than an inherent aspect of vampires.

                Regardless whether the vampire had a mortal life as a hunter gather nomad 10,000 years ago or they just got embraced last year, a vampires life is about power. Namely who has it and who doesn't. The mortal life might have racist or sexist thinking, but once you become a vampire, a lot of that becomes unimportant. Mortals are food, potential replacement vampires, and often servants.

                How often do you as a human walk past the butcher section of the super market and consider if the steak or roast you are going to purchase came from a racist or sexist cow? It sounds ridiculous but that is the sort of thinking being suggested here. We are essentially trying to project our contemporary thinking onto a walking anachronism. Because to a vampire at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is power. Sure you might come from a time where the genders had more defined roles or it was socially acceptable to hunt savages for sport, but none of that tends to matter unless you are trying to pass your self off as human in a society that holds those values.

                When special forces operatives run around the middle east, they grow beards and where local head coverings. They don't do this because they believe in the social tenants that back the customs, they do it to blend in and to smooth social interactions. By this notion any vampire trying to pass as human will mirror that cultures values and habits. The problem comes from a mortal looking at a vampires behavior and words, but we have no idea if what we are seeing is their true opinion or their social mask.

                The one aspect of racism/sexism that I don't see brought up much is the idea of "passing". Usually this refers to a person of color having a light enough skin tone and the right mix of features to pass for a white person to gain social benefits or just a lack of social problems depending on how you look at it. The same notion applies if one has an alternate sexuality but is trying to be perceived as your average heterosexual individual. Practically all vampires have to try to pass for human or spend their time hiding. Thus any vampire who interacts with the public to any degree by definition has to constantly be updating their "passing game" to keep from being outed.

                We as players often project the idea of vampirism as freedom into our games and interpretations of the source material. But in truth part of being a vampire is to forever be passing, to always be covering ones actual thoughts and feelings with what the locals feel. Sure some vampires will mess up and use out of date behaviors or views, but that is only because they have enough power to survive standing out like that.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  what may be a tiny lady can throw you around like a ragdoll.
                  You do remind me of some stupid anime, but they’re sexism, of course
                  Last edited by Rock113; 08-23-2020, 08:31 AM.

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                  • #10
                    i think it has more to do that old vamps are completely detached from humanity and their hierarchies and divisions such as the many -isms. tho i would say that an old vamp from a very discriminatory society is still more discriminatory then a modem 'woke' vamp, they're just discriminating based on things that are more relevant to kindred (like clan, age, generation/blood potency, etc.) so they're not racist or sexist, but still very discriminatory. which would probably be hidden behind the general asocial/antisocial behavior older kindred tend to have.

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                    • #11
                      Vampire's sexism and racism can linger among their views if such things were contemporary to their embrace dates and they still retain their humanity. The beast can eventually erase those prejudices or enforce them depending on the character. Vampire is considered a game for mature people, this things can be part of the stories as long as everybody digs it as a game and thoroughly understand to the Note at the beginning of most Black Dog books.

                      Twisted s__t to our current standards happened through the ages (and many more keep happening til this day) and vampires are immortal, many of this things were contemporary to many of them. Nowadays many publishers are extremely careful of cancel culture since it can affect them really hard and I understand that WW/Onyx Path/V5 to be cautious about this for a comprehensive reason, yet the layout is there, whether it is written specifically in a book or within the reach of ST's research of a discriminating era a NPC comes from.

                      - Saga
                      Last edited by Saga; 08-23-2020, 08:00 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Can't emphasize this enough:

                        Smart vampires want to increase sexism, racism, religious tensions and classism.

                        Ethinic neighbourhoods make it easier to spot people who don't belong, which increases the security of a domain.
                        poverty areas with crumbling infrastructure make excellent feeding grounds.
                        Any fighting or murder as a result of these tensions provides a smoke screen for which vampire killings can fly under the radar.
                        People who deeply distrust the police (and media) aren't going to report to them.
                        Religions can act like a painkiller but also can greatly influence any us-vs-them mentalities people might have.

                        Even a black vampire would benefit from apartheid.


                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                        • #13
                          When I run my chronicles as an ST, this is how I handle it. It is very much based on the definition of vampire age groups.

                          Vampires stop being Neonates around age 100 because by that point every human they could have known when they were alive is finally dead. Even the newborn baby that was delivered the day of the night you were embraced is now gone. So your last tie to the living world is now gone. As a Neonate, a vampire basically carries with them all the ideas and prejudices they had while alive for good or evil. They still have ties to humanity because there may still be people who are alive that they retain a vestigial affection (or dislike) for. They carry them on just like old people carry those they had when they were younger. During this time vampires still cling to their humanity because they have many reminders of them being alive ad their prejudices are a part of it.

                          Some of that survives when they become Ancillae. The transition from ancillae to elder happens is less certain than neonate to ancillae. It can be anywhere from 250 to 500 years. I decided the transition is based on when history changes enough that the vampire essentially can't even reconcile the world with what they knew beforehand. So much has changed that the world was now unrecognizable, and they had zero connection to the human world anymore. They had moved beyond it and identified only with being a vampire. So instead of it being based on something relative to the vampire, it tended to be some big historical event or age (somewhat arbitrary, but not completely) when "everything changed". That event would eventually move to some other event. So the event in North America that defined whether one was ancillae or an elder tended to be whether you were embraced before American Independence, and in Europe it tended to be the Thirty Years War (or similar - the 1640s was a brutal decade everywhere in Europe) because so many things were different after that time than before it.

                          By the time a vampire is an elder, they've abandoned their human prejudices because they've essentially abandoned everything about humanity. They may have prejudice about things concerning vampires, but they've basically lost interest in their own beliefs when they were human because those ideas are almost entirely irrelevant now. They're entirely pragmatic in their dealings with humans. By that time, they've been vampires for far longer than when they were living. They may still have tastes and preferences when it comes to various mortal things, but that's different from being prejudiced.

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                          • #14
                            Elder vampires long ago stopped thinking like mortals or holding mortal biases for the most part. To them, it seems petty and pointless as they are there to play the long game. The only time racism comes into play is if they run into racist mortals who's strings they can pull. Or anti-racism movements for that matter. Or any movement whatsoever. They don't care what these mortals think beyond how they can manipulate them into following their own agenda.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                              When I run my chronicles as an ST, this is how I handle it. It is very much based on the definition of vampire age groups.
                              .
                              I think you're doing it wrong
                              Some people mature fast, some people slow, and some people would change their minds on something if only they had a five minute experience on the topic. A Neonate is called precisely that because they are babies; Like babies they are changing rapidly. They're sponges for information, they grow constantly, they require a lot of supervision, they keep people up at night, they piss themselves constantly (is it normal for me to think it smells like honey?) they take things out of the drawer and throw things on the floor but somehow they haven't worked out how to put things back. Sometimes they won't eat even though they're hungry. They are constantly learning and eventually they'll learn to put things back in the Drawer and stop pissing everywhere.

                              Ancilla not only have worked out how to put things back in the drawer, but they no longer feel the need to open the drawer and take everything out. They change the neonate's nappies and help the elders when they make the mess. They aren't learning as much because they know most everything they need, but they do learn things at a nice gradual pace.

                              Elders are the folk who have gone back to pissing themselves really. They've let themselves go, and so much has changed that they need to re-learn things again. They're opening drawers and throwing stuff on the floor again, because they no longer understand what's in the drawers.


                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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