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The mindsets of old Vampires?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I think you're doing it wrong
    That's not how I'm running it. Your way doesn't appeal to me at all.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      I think you're doing it wrong
      wow, talk about a pot talking to a kettle scenario.

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      • #18
        Right: why use realism or the writer's intentions when it gets in the way of your themes?

        1: It's not an accident that Ancilae can mean 'maid' as well as support. They're the support for the 'newborns' and the elderly. These words were selected cleverly. The ancilla are the ones with their shit together in society

        2:The Humanity rating is there for becoming distant. Age is correlation but not causation.

        3: Neonated need to change way faster than you've described to survive.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          Right: why use realism or the writer's intentions when it gets in the way of your themes?
          Actually that is more or less what we are complaining about with your take on things.

          If I were to argue about realism, no vampire could survive in the World of Darkness longer than a couple years if they were not capable of constantly adapting and learning. The attrition rate of for vampires who act like spoiled socialites, edgy high schoolers, or two dimensional villains would be near 95% if not 100%. Essentially the setting simply would kill any character who was neither competent or adaptive. So you have to ask yourself why the game has those sorts of characters, not because it is realistic, but because the PCs need to run into those characters and bounce off of them.

          Essentially more than half of the vampire game exists not to simulate how vampires would function in an undead society, but instead to cater to player desires, regardless how little sense it makes. If vampires have a society where masquerade violations equal death, the Brujah and Malkavians would at best be rare bloodlines or at worst extinct due to their mentalities being too much of a risk to the masquerade.

          As far as writers intentions, that is a loaded subject. The original writers made the game what 28 or 30 years ago at this point? The world they were using at the baseline barely had internet or cell phones smaller than a brick. Thus you could get away with being far more open with vampiric behavior and concepts. But the tricky thing is that the current batch of writers is constantly trying to maintain continuity with that older game concept while trying to update it to match todays culture. They just fall down on subjects like facial identification data bases, drones, mass public surveillance, or the fact everyone has cell phones, including people living in third world countries.

          Of course when they did try to update things in V5 the writers decided to attack the Tremere who are one of the more hidden and non threatening clans, rather than purging the entire brujah clan or every malkavian they come across. So I can't exactly call that realistic or well thought out.

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          • #20
            So just my 2 cents on the original question. To me vampires are supposed to be static creatures that have a really hard time keeping up with an ever changing world being locked in the mindset that they died in. So yes i think in special elder vampires created anywhere after 500 AD would be racist to varrying degrees, they would also likely be homophobic and transphobic, put quite some weight on your religion and nationality / area of birth. they will likely be even Anti American as those are "upstarts"
            Those and the even older ones would also be quite sexist, given that in most cultures since the bronze age women were viewed as lesser humans and i guess they would not know whats wrong with slavery eihter. That aid...you have a ghoul dont you

            With all of those statements made though the chances of you encountering such vampires is also rather rare given their age and anything born in the last 60 years shouldnt really struggle much with being open minded and getting the bigotry out of the way.

            But much more important, there is something that changes for all kainites: Mortal society becomes irrelevant. And vampire society is and always was dominated by ancients that didnt have such issues. They were gay (famously the Michael, Dracon, Antonius one or the Moloch & Troile) not to mention some vampires are hermaprohditic to begin with (Sascha Vykos) and females in vampire society are in no way lesser than the males. So they may have been forced to rethink their position, and thiose who couldnt likely didnt make it into the modern nights, given that they would shun important allies and make unnecesary enemies.

            That said, sexism, racism etc. doesnt have to be this evil "in your face" thing its often presented as. It can be very subtle. So the old prince of your city might still think women are inferior to men, but the only way that shows is, that he is very protective of female kainites in his domain and never allows them to participate in dangerous missions and keeps them away from the front lines. It might be that he is trating females very courtous and is speaking down to males cause he thinks they can handle it. It doesnt have to be that he doesnt allow females in high positions in his domain, just that he treats them differently, promoting them out of harms way.
            Similiar a female prince might think that men are only good for brutal physical work and deem them too dumb to understand politics and the art of propper planning.
            Racism may also just manifest in them not trusting asian kainites one bit and always suspecting that they work for the Kuei Jin or that he wont promote black kainites in his domain.
            Since homosexuality was in medieval times seen as a sin, they might also just ignore that as "just another sin" that vampires are guilty of and just doesnt want to know about it.
            And for very modern things they may just be incapable of even grasping the idea of new pronouns and genders and be just confused by it and unwilling to participate in this "weird new fashion of speech" and say something like "learn to speak propperly" to anyone who uses such speech.
            And if its a more arrogant elder i can totally see them just throwing insults at neonates because thats the only propper way to adress a newcomer that might not make it through their first century of unlife. Respect is earned not given etc. and thus may treat anyone below ancillae status as waste of blood.

            This brings me to that vampires are highly likely to have adopted NEW -isms. Generation(ism) Age(ism) Clan(ism)
            Cause those kinda replace sexism, nationalism and racism respectively.
            And here even more so. While the difference in human races is very miniscule (like color) the differences in Clans are enourmous. Not only does each clan come with their own mindset and thus culture but a Brujah has a very different set of skills than a Nosferatu - by blood, by birth. Those differences are very pronoucned, very real and might easily lead vampires to believe in "higher" and "lower" Kainites as they did in the dark ages.

            Similiar Generation and Age also both mean actual power, actual real difference between Kainites that plays an actual visible role in their new life.

            So yes i think, while Kainites might leave racism, sexism etc. at the door when dieing, i think they are very likely to just transform these into clanism and similiar and be even more "clanist" than they were racist in life cuase this time the differences are enourmous and obvious.

            And lets be real - if i say Tremere you very likely have a fixed idea of what that is already. And if you are not a Tremere plyer yourself you will with good reason distrust any Tremere you meet outright. You will also have your fixed oppinion on what a Toreador or Ventrue is and may treat Nosferatu with little respect of cause what they are. If thats not enough i say Baali.
            So yes i think vampires does explore that theme of judging people based on what they are brilliantly and turns players into "clanists" without them even realising.

            Lets just take Ravnos - they writers took the stereotypes aboutt he Roma and put them into the Ravnos just with the little fiat that actually EVERY SINGLE Ravnos is a criminal. Not by stereotype, but by thei actual very real clan curse. Now if they are rapists, murderers, thieves...that varies but there literally is no such thing as a Ravnos without vice.

            And while most vampires commit various atrocities on a regular basis and might not care, the Ravnos could also be an outlet for their guilt like "at least i am not as bad as THEM"

            That said i find it very fitting to have most vampires you encounter looking down at you, treating you like garbage, insulting you or just ignoring you because of what you are (clan, generation, age) and you have to struggle against their "clanism" and hostility until youve proven yourself worthy of their consideration. I think neonates should be treated badly by most vampires. As expendable tools they use. Thats after all abnig theme in the game as well. And if someone is nice to you, then it has a reason and you can bet its not because they like you or are just nice undead
            Last edited by Orkar; 08-26-2020, 01:38 AM.

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            • #21
              The 'Vampires are static' thing refers to how when you're two, becoming three is 50% of your life so far, but when you're 99, becoming 100 is 1% of your life so far; Your earlier experiences have far more weight than your latter ones.

              Neonates, babies, though they may have been instructed by their sire, still aren't seen as having fully internalized the reality of unlife. The prince was a pedophile in life and as a ventrue now only feeds on kids? The prince has set up several large orphanages with poor track records? They might have been told that it's fine and they should leave it alone, but deep down inside they know it isn't normal, isn't right, and they want to fight it, they want to challenge the prince. They've been taught how to feed properly but they might still screw up and perhaps they're not prepared for the contingency they might have to make... At the same time, because of the sheer amount of mistakes they're making, they're learning fast, and they're doing relatively well with keeping up with mortal trends because most of them are close to mortals

              Ancillae, they respond to the news of the prince being a pedophile with 'So?'. They wouldn't even make a big deal out of it if they botched a feed and had to take measures. You could say they're in the best place in undead society; They know all the ropes, but they're not so important as to attract attention.

              Many Elders see themselves as target so they've withdrawn from mortal society a bit. They've likely learned to adapt to so many different fashions and language changes that it's a little confusing to them. They're armed like it's 1920, move like it's 1980, they talk a curious mixture of 1990 and woke 2020 with the occasional use of a 1700's word, and they dress for a time that hasn't come yet.


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                They've likely learned to adapt to so many different fashions and language changes that it's a little confusing to them. They're armed like it's 1920, move like it's 1980, they talk a curious mixture of 1990 and woke 2020 with the occasional use of a 1700's word, and they dress for a time that hasn't come yet.

                id go a bit beyond that. Itas easy enough to have a ghoul fetch you new clothes and putting them on. You may be very uncomrfortable in those new clothes but its easy to adapt fashionwise.
                Its much more difficult and taks quite some effort though to change your actual speech. It is why we have accents, dialects and even moving to a new area and living there for decades doesnt change the way you speak, pronounce, use of words etc. HUMANS have a very hard time adapting that way how much mroe brutal must it be for vampires.
                Now ofc you CAN change your accent, dialect, sociolect etc. but it takes active effort almost as if learning a new language. Which is why i think most elders just dont even try. why wuld they, theys have their pawns to deal with mortals and among immortals they can afford to stick out as anachronisms with heavy thick accents or dialects that are tough to understand.

                So i dont think elders speak pretty 2020 with the occasional 1700eds word thrown in i think they speak much more like superawkward greatgrandparents, using speech of the 18th century mixed in with the occasional and very wrongly placed modern word. Like
                i has't spoken cometh h're young issue f'r thou art a chilling (cool) hipster (fellow)
                Last edited by Orkar; 08-26-2020, 04:57 AM.

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                • #23
                  I don't imagine they're so detached. Common speech with common words like "I had a great time with your parents" is going to come to elders quite readily. with "Thou art's" and such the Elders are going to know they're archaic because they hear modern mortals speak often enough to know they're not using them. However changes in words and phrases that aren't used often likely still elude many elders. Nobody's going to point out that "bethink oneself of.." or "Caducity" or 'doxy' aren't used anymore and that 'go-cart' has a different meaning until the misunderstanding occurs. You could have interesting conversations with an elder about how formerly normal words that she uses innocently are now charged as slurs and why she shouldn't use them.

                  They might know that modern humans aren't so verbose as their ancestors, but they troublingly might still feel that their verbosity is a badge of honour and the neonates should look up to such an eloquent manner of speaking...


                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I don't imagine they're so detached. Common speech with common words like "I had a great time with your parents" is going to come to elders quite readily. with "Thou art's" and such the Elders are going to know they're archaic because they hear modern mortals speak often enough to know they're not using them. However changes in words and phrases that aren't used often likely still elude many elders. Nobody's going to point out that "bethink oneself of.." or "Caducity" or 'doxy' aren't used anymore and that 'go-cart' has a different meaning until the misunderstanding occurs. You could have interesting conversations with an elder about how formerly normal words that she uses innocently are now charged as slurs and why she shouldn't use them.

                    They might know that modern humans aren't so verbose as their ancestors, but they troublingly might still feel that their verbosity is a badge of honour and the neonates should look up to such an eloquent manner of speaking...
                    I heard something on Tumblr about Vampires that sometimes switch “dialects “ when flustered. Like start talking like the cantberry tales.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                      I heard something on Tumblr about Vampires that sometimes switch “dialects “ when flustered. Like start talking like the cantberry tales.
                      Following that logic any person born and raised in one country and moved else where is a vampire elder since they fall back into first languages when flustered.

                      Though to be fair I have known several people who are multilingual and had a habit of slipping in and out of various languages in the course of a sentence. This made things very interesting when you had several of them in the same conversation because everyone understood everyone else despite all of them mixing the language content of their sentences.

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