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Why don’t vampires ghoul/Dominate/Presence famous people?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    One of my house Allili characters has a Politicactian as a dreamer, and is discussing with him to go to Washington. But that’s different as their relationship is more “equal” and they didn’t start with him as a prominent politician
    why does that concept make me want to go rewatch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? (thou maybe The Distinguished Gentleman might be more fitting.)


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

      why does that concept make me want to go rewatch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? (thou maybe The Distinguished Gentleman might be more fitting.)
      Thanks she is nicer then a House Allili usually is.

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      • #18
        Kindred DO toy with famous people ... as long as said famous people operate mainly within their domain. It's far more difficult to hold influence over someone in a completely different city away from where your disciplines might be used. Plus it's quasi impossible to reliably maintain a blood bond on someone far away unless said famous person can evade the paparazzi trying to figure out why they keep flying out to your town every couple of weeks.

        As for controlling the President ... I believe it's been tried, but as a general rule, the Second Inquisition is very quick to realize something is amiss and will come down on those vampires HARD if they are trying to exert influence on power individuals on a national or international scale. Even Washington DC kindred will instead try to gain influence on much less visible but still highly influential mortals like deputy secretaries that are actually in control of day to day operations.

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        • #19
          You could ghoul some minor politician and woke him up to president, or at least a state governor

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

            Thanks she is nicer then a House Allili usually is.
            How does she feel about House Eiluned?


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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            • #21
              Originally posted by KarlB View Post
              Kindred DO toy with famous people ... as long as said famous people operate mainly within their domain. It's far more difficult to hold influence over someone in a completely different city away from where your disciplines might be used. Plus it's quasi impossible to reliably maintain a blood bond on someone far away unless said famous person can evade the paparazzi trying to figure out why they keep flying out to your town every couple of weeks.

              As for controlling the President ... I believe it's been tried, but as a general rule, the Second Inquisition is very quick to realize something is amiss and will come down on those vampires HARD if they are trying to exert influence on power individuals on a national or international scale. Even Washington DC kindred will instead try to gain influence on much less visible but still highly influential mortals like deputy secretaries that are actually in control of day to day operations.
              True. The Second Inquisition is a huge force in V5.


              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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              • #22
                There's degrees of fame I think Kindred are comfortable with; A youtube celebrity, the weird people on trash TV shows, a dictator of a country people avoid, the health minister, an archbishop, the drummer from that band that used to be really huge, a guy from Real Madrid that only fans would know about (no ghouling given drugs tests)
                Kindred want influentual people and famous people are influentual people, but Bradd pitt or the POTUS is just too damn big.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #23
                  I'd also imagine that most vampires either by natural inclination, or learned skill (either previous to or after Embrace) learn enough about how power functions in a bureaucracy to learn that controlling the top is entirely unnecessary and inefficient.

                  To use some numbers to put this into perspective. The US federal legislature has less than 550 members, and is supported by a staff of ~25K people (and these are just the people that support the House and Senate in their legislative functions, I'm not talking about people that are there to ensure the buildings function, food gets made, etc.) Most of those 25K people are, despite regularly interacting with extremely powerful people, complete anonymous to the general public. How many people outside the halls of Congress could name, let alone pick out of a crowd, Nancy Pelosi's Chief of Staff isn't some big secret, but you almost never hear her name or see her face on the news or whatever. Consider how much power and influence she has though, as the Chief of Staff to the Speaker of the House.

                  The might be a bit of a high bar for most vampires still, but there's ~1,000 other Chiefs of Staff/Deputy Chiefs of Staff if you'd rather aim a bit lower (like going after influence over Committee chairs). Which also means there's probably a bunch of staffers around that no handful of vampires controls them all.

                  Yes, the famous people with big names do have real power, but a lot of that power is filtered through people operating completely out of the sight of the public, and there are way too many of them to realistically watch all of them if you're a secret government agency try to watch out for vampires.

                  Influential and not-famous is frequently better than influential and famous, since a lot of the former control/influence the later.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    I'd also imagine that most vampires either by natural inclination, or learned skill (either previous to or after Embrace) learn enough about how power functions in a bureaucracy to learn that controlling the top is entirely unnecessary and inefficient.

                    To use some numbers to put this into perspective. The US federal legislature has less than 550 members, and is supported by a staff of ~25K people (and these are just the people that support the House and Senate in their legislative functions, I'm not talking about people that are there to ensure the buildings function, food gets made, etc.) Most of those 25K people are, despite regularly interacting with extremely powerful people, complete anonymous to the general public. How many people outside the halls of Congress could name, let alone pick out of a crowd, Nancy Pelosi's Chief of Staff isn't some big secret, but you almost never hear her name or see her face on the news or whatever. Consider how much power and influence she has though, as the Chief of Staff to the Speaker of the House.

                    The might be a bit of a high bar for most vampires still, but there's ~1,000 other Chiefs of Staff/Deputy Chiefs of Staff if you'd rather aim a bit lower (like going after influence over Committee chairs). Which also means there's probably a bunch of staffers around that no handful of vampires controls them all.

                    Yes, the famous people with big names do have real power, but a lot of that power is filtered through people operating completely out of the sight of the public, and there are way too many of them to realistically watch all of them if you're a secret government agency try to watch out for vampires.

                    Influential and not-famous is frequently better than influential and famous, since a lot of the former control/influence the later.
                    Very good point!!!


                    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      I'd also imagine that most vampires either by natural inclination, or learned skill (either previous to or after Embrace) learn enough about how power functions in a bureaucracy to learn that controlling the top is entirely unnecessary and inefficient.

                      To use some numbers to put this into perspective.

                      [...]

                      Influential and not-famous is frequently better than influential and famous, since a lot of the former control/influence the later.
                      Agreed. The clans of the Camarilla (probably also the independents and Lasombra to some extent) want to raise as much awareness as possible. So they developed mundane skills and of influence and manipulation. Why ghoul somebody when you can offer someone a high paying job if the just help you out? Why dominate someone when you have something that you can blackmail? Why risk a breach when you can support a few lobbyists to further your goals? Is your control and influence absolut? No, does it have to be? Not really. I mean you have an eternity why risk everything for some advantage that might be over after the next election or some media scandal? Sure there are times when you have to use as much force as possible but if that's your go to strategy your probably see the sunset soon.

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                      • #26
                        Let me quote myself from another about vampires getting rich.

                        Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                        Here is something to keep in mind about vampires attaining wealth, I'll use an analogy.

                        Imagine a hungry man is walking across the country side. He sees a bunch of sheep grazing on the grass. They don't even run away, he can walk right up to them and kill them without any struggle. He sees edible plants growing in the field, arranged in neat little rows so he can just go and eat to his heart's content. It seems like this man, with little to no work, can have all of the food he wants. But, the truth is that he can't because all of this food belongs to other people who have spent years cultivating their land and building up their flocks. If he tries to take their stuff, he's in for some trouble.

                        So the world of the rich and powerful must seem to a new vampire with the ability to blood bind people and a few points of Dominate and/or Presence. The world seems to be your oyster - go to the mayor and make him your servant, make the local billionaire businessman your servant too. Make the chief of police your ghoul so that you can get away with crimes. As with the hungry man above, just walk through the garden and eat to your heart's content.

                        BUT - other vampires exist too and they have already plucked or claimed the low hanging fruit. The elders are invested in these humans with wealth and power, they are invested in the businesses and institutions that get things done in a city. You can't very well go along and claim them as your own any more than you can walk into a grocery store and start eating food off the shelves.

                        Vampires are social and economic parasites as much as they are literal blood drinkers. The humans can do the day to day chores of running businesses and they can learn all about economic models and marketing or how to day trade - but which ever mortals end up making money are going to be under the direct or indirect sway of some elder vampire somewhere. Becoming a rich vampire has less to do with being a businessman or even a domitor yourself and more to do with playing the political game against other vampires to get your own piece of a pie that has been baked and sliced long before you started playing the game.
                        Vampires can blood bind people - including the rich, famous, and powerful - but you have to be careful because the important people have likely been claimed already. Likely by a powerful vampire, someone who serves a powerful vampire, or some other creature. Sure, you could probably get away with ghouling some moderately famous celebrity, but you have to be careful trying to get access to power, fame, or influence in a way that seems too easy - because if it is that easy then somebody else may have claimed it first.

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                        • #27
                          Short input from me - its a more modern nights phenomenon. In the dark ages vampires used to dominate and ghoul kings and queens. And that was partially a reason for the inquisition to happen...i mean the Baali managed to get one of theirs to ghoul the pope and started using the church against his enemies

                          so my main reason why thy dont anymore is, that throwing mrotals at each other didnt quite work otu last time and they dont want that shitstorm happening again

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                          • #28
                            As a side note for POTUS in the WoD, there are the Black Body Detectors, and linked with this a special phone at the NSA. This links to a member of the protection detail, who will remove the compromised individual. - Source Project Twilight - so though not know about by the vampires, it would be interesting. Also if my my understanding of V5 is correct, then the NSA assets for this may be part of the SI...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by babi_gog View Post
                              As a side note for POTUS in the WoD, there are the Black Body Detectors, and linked with this a special phone at the NSA. This links to a member of the protection detail, who will remove the compromised individual. - Source Project Twilight - so though not know about by the vampires, it would be interesting. Also if my my understanding of V5 is correct, then the NSA assets for this may be part of the SI...
                              Cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, especially in the context of V5.


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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