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What if Ten Thousand Demons(Immortals) is a global phonemenon?

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  • What if Ten Thousand Demons(Immortals) is a global phonemenon?

    We all know TTD is limited to Middle Kingdom, but what if they (and, of course, TTI) are a global phonemenon, just like Kindred?

    If you consider Demon and Hunter stuff, this maybe more possible. Ten Thousand Immortal, aka. anceint blessed mortals, hailed from the whole mankind and battled against Powers That Be, or Lords of Hell?

    Will the Kindred be constrained by them, and finally became a minor thing like those of current Middle Kingdom?

    Will the TTD formed different dharmas(Roads) across the world, depending on region?

    How will you write the VtM likes this?

  • #2
    The original KotE is a mess. The rules about the improvement of Dharmas, the properity of Disciplines, etc. I have many posts about these. But it still has many good ideas, the idea of Wheel of Age, which was first introduced in KotE, etc.

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    • #3
      Actually, that's kind of part of my VtM headcanon when I run games. That anyone, anywhere could rise as a Kuei-jin, with some areas being more prone to that than others. It's just that their societies that survived and thrived were those that rose in India and Eastern Asia. Those in other areas were long ago destroyed and largely forgotten about by Cainites before they had chance to really thrive. If one rises in Cainite regions outside Kuei-jin communities are either mistaken for Cainites that have either entered frenzy or become a wight, or if they overcome their initial frenzy upon rising, they're mistaken for Caitiff.

      The New Promise Mandarinate have become the independent Sunset Courts, a network of Courts across North America that's become something of melting pot for the Kuei-jin, with the Courts becoming a hodgepodge of vampires from across the various Asian Courts and the rising numbers of non-Asians in the Courts. Politically, they are a bit of a paper tiger, projecting strength and unity far greater than the reality. They've peace with the Anarchs and Cam, though it's less a peace and more a weary cold war state with the Anarchs as they haven't forgotten about they caused the Free State and they want to reclaim San Francisco, the one city the Courts still completely control. And the Cam is looking to exploit both groups to weaken each other so they can eventually move in and take over.

      But the Courts one advantage is that the Cainites aren't yet aware that non-Asians can become Kuei-jin and the Courts are extremely focused on keeping that a secret as long as possibly as they've been using non-Asians as spies in both groups.


      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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      • #4
        How is it that Hungry Dead actually find eachother?
        Historically, Asia has been a huge population hotbed whilst everywhere else has been rather sparse.

        Realistically, I think there would be a sort of cycle; Cainites, fearing hungry dead power, would try to supress HD, forcing HD to flee to small towns and rural areas. If left unchecked, the Hungry dead will grow in power and attack Cainite cities in revenge. If their attack was successful, The HD will try to eliminate all cainites from the city and establish their own safe space for which to recruit new HD without the Cainites murdering them. Cainites will then declare an emergency and try to take the city back. The Cainites will eventually be successful, but the HD will be back. Some Cainite cities are extroadinarily successful, some just know that there's a hungry dead out there of terrible power who will some day kill everyone in the city, and in some cases the hungry dead have managed to hold off the counter attacks, are they'll build a grand and glorious army who'll remove the world of Cainites in another few hundred years... assuming they don't fall to infighting.

        The other possibility is that the Cainites welcome the Hungry dead with open arms... but they secretly have them killed when they grow into a threat.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          How is it that Hungry Dead actually find eachother?
          Usually a combination of stories relating to some monster running amok in the next prefecture or province, usually followed up with astrology and divination. Once the newbie is captured and civilized, they tend to group up with like minded types or are assigned by the local elders to a Wu.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            How is it that Hungry Dead actually find eachother?
            There is also the fact that the Kuei-Jin are close to Spirits and to Wraiths. The Garou use kin-fetch Spirits to let them know about First Changes, so I can see that there are dedicated Spirits that are on the lookout for new Kuei-Jin.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Thoth View Post

              Usually a combination of stories relating to some monster running amok in the next prefecture or province, usually followed up with astrology and divination. Once the newbie is captured and civilized, they tend to group up with like minded types or are assigned by the local elders to a Wu.
              This... wouldn't work in the west, where they don't tacitly accept the supernatural. Too many hunters.

              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              There is also the fact that the Kuei-Jin are close to Spirits and to Wraiths. The Garou use kin-fetch Spirits to let them know about First Changes, so I can see that there are dedicated Spirits that are on the lookout for new Kuei-Jin.
              That works.


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                Will the Kindred be constrained by them, and finally became a minor thing like those of current Middle Kingdom?
                kindred will either be a few low gen vampires holding domain in kj cities,
                or a large community of high gens spread in smaller turfs as gangs or blend in with young kuei-jin or heretics/akuma

                Will the TTD formed different dharmas(Roads) across the world, depending on region?
                there would probably be more varied heretical dharmas (stuff like paths of enlightenement could be some of them),
                the main dharmas though should stay the same


                -

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                • #9
                  There's a lot of vagueness in general about how HD collect the newly risen. Some time it seems like they don't know until torn up bodies start appearing, other times they're on them within hours or minutes of their rising. So I have taken a middle with that, where the HD have long, long since developed a practice of binding spirits to places where bodies tend to end up, graveyards, notorious dumping areas for bodies, bridges known for being a suicide hotspot, etc. so that they will be alerted quickly when one of their own rises. Basically similar to a thing the Werewolves do with their younger kinfolk in case on them goes through the First Change. Naturally they don't get them all through that method and keep their eyes out for the signs of a newly risen chih-mei and investigate.

                  It's also worth noting that they aren't strict and picky as their Asian counterparts who will actually kill most chih-mei rather than spend the time and energy to calm and instruct them. So what they lose in those killed by others before they can capture them they make up there.

                  Though, yes they don't have the numbers that they have in Asia. Internally, the Courts have grown to resemble a combination of extended family, religious cult and a paramilitary organization. Those they've newly gained they basically keep them in seclusion for years indoctrinating them in their ways before they're allowed out into the public, especially in Anarch cities as we fear their chaotic beliefs could corrupt and turn the young away from their Karmic Path aka abandon the Courts for the Movement and take their secrets with them.

                  Like I said before, they're a bit of Paper Tiger, using their unique powers that Cainities either rarely possess or don't have at all, their otherness to Cainites and insular nature to keep the Cainites weary of them but not scared enough to focus their energies into destroying right away. And they do play the game of local politics like any other vampire does.

                  But probably the thing that is the most beneficial to the Sunset Courts in my setting is that none of the leaders on the West Coast want to restart the war there at the moment. While the Cam have strengthened their grip in the region, it's not as strong as claim or like and fear that if they push too hard, the Anarchs will band together and drive them back out. The Anarchs are strongest in terms of numbers and could in theory push everyone else out of the West Coast but they lack unity and leadership to do so, leaving them scattered and divided. The HD while possessing powers the others lack and have secret of non-Asian HD, don't have the numbers to take others on in a straight up fight.


                  Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What follows is entirely my own personal head canon but I do actually use the idea of the Ten Thousand Immortals in a more global sense.

                    Basically I lean into the idea of the World of Darkness’ history being defined by its nature as a MULTI RESONANCE LAYERED REALITY. Before The Fall (the flood, the rise of the gauntlet, the end of the golden age, the sundering, whatever you wanna call it) the world was entirely an infinite number of layers and afterwards it collapsed into a fewer and finite number.

                    Anyway, I use the Ten Thousand Immortals as an archetypal representation of the idea ‘Humans given extraordinary cosmic power to allow them to act as stewards over portions of reality but pride and corruption led to them falling from grace’ to represent a few things. These are not only demigods who eventually overstepped their bounds but both the Ten Thousand Immortals and Nephilim. Humans touched by higher powers who had the capacity to be good and just stewards of a high world but whose foibles led them to failure and all the world to fall.

                    By the time of The Flood these beings had to be either destroyed or buried, their purpose of being stewards of Creation whether before or after the Heavenly Schism (whether amongst the Angels, Triat, or Imperial Heaven) having obviously failed.

                    However the celestials who had been behind this plan knew that there would be a need for celestially unpowered mortals who had both Free Will and High Power to try and keep Reality from collapse, so there were new iterations that followed the Nephilim/Ten Thousand Immortals after The Flood.

                    These beings were The Imbued - Heroes of the past and Hunters of today. I run it so that The Imbued have come into being in every time where they were deemed necessary to combat supernatural forces to preserve humanity and the world and that The Imbued of today are merely the most recent in a long chain of beings tasked with the preservation of Creation and the protection of humanity from its paranormal nemeses.

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                    • #11
                      I think it ultimately depends on how you decide why they may have been an 'eastern-only' phenomenon in setting and there's alot of ways you could handle expansion. If it started out originally as a global phenomenon it's restriction could be tied to certain supernatural conditions which wax/wane (The gauntlet, consensual belief, etc.) but you could also have it start out 'local' and become more global as those same conditions changed (I think alot of it is aesthetic. KoTE seems to favor 'common to rare' so the idea of something being more global becoming more restricted as superantural elements the condition is tied to wane/die out - ley lines and chi, belief, etc.) Obviously it's not mutually exclusive though and it could even be cyclic (which is another theme tied to the oWoD, esp. KotE.) I do think it's also tied up with how you regard KotE in general and what the KJ were, of course.

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                      • #12
                        My headcanon casts the Malhim, Heaven's second wave of warriors described by a reminiscing narrator in D:tF, as being either the 10,000 Immortals or a prototype.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                          My headcanon casts the Malhim, Heaven's second wave of warriors described by a reminiscing narrator in D:tF, as being either the 10,000 Immortals or a prototype.
                          That is an interesting take and I was wondering about that before. Ultimately though my headcanon is the Fomorians were the Malhim, and eventually the Tuatha arose from the hosts of Nightmare.


                          I would be interested in the Herectical Dharmas that would arise when the Hungry Dead arise across the globe.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            This... wouldn't work in the west, where they don't tacitly accept the supernatural. Too many hunters.
                            The astrology technically can be as much of a prediction ahead of arrival as it is an alert once the new HD has risen, so technically it works better.

                            As for "too many hunters" that is a tricky thing to argue for or against because we don't have functional numbers on them, we don't have canon information on how connected they are or how good their intelligence network is. I mean if its just a group of four of five people traveling around the country in an RV and stopping any where that has a news article talking about strange deaths, 99% of their stops are going to be dead ends because HD are slow to rise.

                            Also most of the weird news tends to find its way to conspiracy websites and trashy tabloids, rather than traditional news outlets. Now if this is because in your game the news outlets are controlled by the vampires or because the news outlets just don't believe the "crazy" stories, the end result is the same, for every story about a real monster attack, there will be dozens if not hundreds of ones that turn out to be blatantly false. Though I suppose it might be amusing to see how many starting hunters end up breaking into peoples houses looking for the love child of elvis and a space alien.

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                            • #15
                              I think he meant 'hunters' in the general sense, not just the Imbued.

                              Anyhow I'm pretty sure alot of the DtF material hints at the Malhim being proto-Fera but there's enough wiggle room I think you can make a (lunar) exalted tie-in that might link to it to the middle kingdoms (then again they have their OWN shapeshifters...)

                              As far as 'weird news' the proliferation of social media has brought alot of fringe news into the mainstream (including conspiracies, tabloid crap, etc.) so it can be harder to 'control' information than it used to be. On the other hand, there's such a proliferation of news its become harder for people to dissect truth from falsehood (especially given growing distrust and polarization of the more 'traditional' news sources) and even the mainstream media has a tabloidesque entertainment element to it (gotta get views, ratings, clicks, etc. so you go for as much sensationalism as you can get away with.)

                              Likewise with the advent of stuff like deepfakes you reach a point where information can be challenged or dismissed even if it is 'technically' true. Someone with good PR/propoganda (magical or not) can do much to manage perceptions and muddy waters.

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