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Destroyed Antediluvians

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  • Destroyed Antediluvians

    There are only two Antediluvians who were really destroyed, Ilyes and Zapathasura. In both cases their clans (True Brujah and Ravnos respectively) were reduced to a handful of members after their founders met Final Death. This also supports the theory that Veddartha was not really destroyed despite what the Ventrue clan elders think.

    What do you guys think?


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

  • #2
    That makes sense.

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    • #3
      Set is, as far as the Followers of Set and Werewolves are concerned, also permanently dead. The Followers of Set are just researching a way to bring him back.

      Mind you, I like the theory that "True Brujah" was Ventrue and Troile is the father of the Brujah clan.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        It is my personal belief that Antediluvians can't be destroyed, save for Diablerie where the power is passed along to another vampire maybe even under the control of the Antediluvian, and that any story involving the destruction of an Antediluvian is a myth or misunderstanding of some kind. Of course, this isn't canon, but it's how I think of things.

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        • #5
          The Trujah stories might not be true, though, and perhaps they're really the offshoot and the regular Brujah really are the originals. I'm not saying they aren't true, just that they might not be. It's a little hard to believe somebody who could literally see the future, travel back with that knowledge and stop time would have been killed. Unless that's just what he wanted everyone to think.

          I agree that signs point to Ventrue surviving a lot longer than the fall of the second city, just because there were 4th Gens embraced later, like Alexander. Although it's entirely possible they diablerized their way down to 4th.

          What about Cappadocius/Ashur? Giovanni offed him back around the Renaissance. Everyone seems to agree that was a good thing.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
            The Trujah stories might not be true, though, and perhaps they're really the offshoot and the regular Brujah really are the originals.
            I think somewhere they mentioned Brujah only had Troile as a descendant. Which would mean both were true.

            Besides, regular Brujah are STILL descendants of Brujah as he's Troile's sire.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              There are Antediluvians who have died, and one that may (or may not) exist but have been removed from the playing field. These include; Ravnos, Brujah/Troile, Cappadocius, Ventrue, and Set.

              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              Mind you, I like the theory that "True Brujah" was Ventrue and Troile is the father of the Brujah clan.
              I don't think I heard that before, but it has possibilities.
              Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 08-24-2020, 10:03 PM.

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              • #8
                I liked the idea of [Brujah] being destroyed since it happened way before Antediluvian reached the godlike powers the Cainites fear in the last 3 or 4 millennia. There's a very thin line between slight time manipulation at higher Temporis powers and actual time travel (which would be very anticlimatic when it comes to storytell vampires), therefore, I believe the possibility of [Brujah] being restored can only be through mystical restoration, not actual TARDIS time travelling.

                Dracian (Zapathasura) fight against the bodhisattvas and his following destruction was a really great addition to the metaplot. I like him being dead.

                On Set, he is MIA. After his disappearance in Ombos during the time of the crucifiction, nobody knows what actually happened to him. I like this story seed since it w as never defined if he was destroyed or went into hiding (what would Set hide from?).

                I enjoyed the diablerie of Cappadocius by Augustus, it was a very detailed scenario (GC1) that can be polished with current lore on the Cappadocian clan and the elders it featured to become a more accurate characterization than it was back then.

                I heavily disliked the "dead a long time ago" of [Ventrue], and also disliked the [Ventrue] and Veddartha being two separate beings only because of the misinterpretation that began with the stats of TC2 in both Maltheas (who is 4th) and Hardestadt (who is 6th) and nobody understood. Both hypothesis I dislike exist due to this and after being discussed for SOOOO long in the old forums, it kinda stuck (I lie told often enough becomes truth -Lenin).

                - Saga

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                • #9
                  Originally, this was a cool mystery and I was interested in a canonical answer. However, all the various retcons and other changes through the various editions have left me cold to any "official" answer. Because the official answer keeps changing based on the the whim of the current developer.

                  At this point, I'm only interested as much as this is issue is important to any specific ST and whether it's important to that specific chronicle. For 99+% of chronicles, it's a non-issue as it does not affect anything at all in the chronicle or greater setting. For example, I don't think most STs really give this any thought or develop their setting differently in any way based on whether or not that antedeluvian or this one is truly dead. There's no actual Jyhad playing out in their games.

                  This isn't a criticism of those games. It would require a lot more effort to figure out a Jyhad style chronicle (with multiple layers of mystery, and secret plots hatching out) than a normal chronicle. And very often for little payout. I must admit I rarely take the time to do this with my own chronicles. As such, I think almost any decision by the ST could be interesting based on how it plays out in game.

                  For my own chronicles, I decided on the following lore. But whether these actually have any impact in how I run my own games, I don't know. It'd be subtle if it was, as I'm not intentionally making decisions based on them.

                  First, I have that Ventrue is truly dead because I like the idea the clan is free of antedeluvian machinations. I think one reason I've become so wedded to this is while this was something I picked up right away when I first read the second edition corebook way back in 1992, I can honestly say that none of the players I've had in my game ever knew this. They read right over it. (And of course once I mention this as part of some chronicle background prep, as part of roleplay, the player always makes a comment that this can't possibly be true because it would be such a convenient story if the antedeluvian is alive.) It seems this is something many posters here have debated online for a while, but in my experience most players don't realize this is an old canonical point. Veddartha is not the name of the founder, but his childer and Mithras diablerized someone to become 4th generation.

                  Second, Cappadocious is dead, but he wasn't successfully diablerized because Augustus botched it. Cappadocious knew some serious lore about death, and this was all part of a plan. The classic "sacrifice yourself for greater knowledge" ploy. But if he survived somehow in the Underworld to continue on with his plans, he isn't coming back as a vampire. Very strong possibility he still plays a role in starting Gehenna/the Apocalypse.

                  Third, I never liked the True Brujah idea or Temporis. But I'm on the fence whether to keep the idea that Troile killed Ilyes and usurped the clan. It makes much thematic sense. So I'm leaning that Brujah is dead with Troile being the only childer of Ilyes that every other Brujah is descended from.

                  Fourth, Set is destroyed. Jesus destroyed him during his forty days in the desert when Set tried to tempt him. This doesn't actually fit the known fact of Set's disappearance in AD 33 (since it occurred in the beginning of Jesus' ministry not at the end of his life), but it's close enough. The Setites still think they can somehow return Set back to existence though (and only the top most circle of the Set cult knows the details of Set's destruction, it is a closely kept secret).

                  Fifth, while Lasombra was not diablerized, his use of Obtenebration sucked him into the Abyss never to return. Don't know if that counts as dead or not, but for all practical purposes he's gone.

                  Toreador, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Tzimisce, and Salubri (in the weird way he is in Tremere) are definitely still around. The others are uncertain as I haven't decided anything.

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                  • #10
                    My point was that details on Brujah might be muddier than they seem and it's hard to be sure, just like with Ventrue, because it supposedly happened so long ago. The V20 Lore of the Clans book gives some alternatives. One of them is that Ventrue diablerized Brujah and Troile in turn diablerized Ventrue. Another was that Troile was the real antedeluvian and Brujah was the usurper. It doesn't say for sure which is right.

                    I hate to wonder if it might be some horrible paradox where Brujah and Troile are the same person from different times and they diablerized themself.

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                    • #11
                      I know Gehenna is not canon, but I still think the section before the scenarios is interesting. The bit with the Spoiler Warning: This is the "official" status of the members of the Third Generation that WW kept track of and had notes on.

                      It lists Brujah, Set, Lasombra, Ravnos, and Ventrue as having met final death.

                      I think the most likely culprit for Set is Osiris. He had been building power for millennia, specifically vanished from Duat at the time, and hated Set since they were mortal brothers. Motive, means, opportunity.
                      Last edited by Trollroot; 08-25-2020, 11:04 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                        There are only two Antediluvians who were really destroyed, Ilyes and Zapathasura. In both cases their clans (True Brujah and Ravnos respectively) were reduced to a handful of members after their founders met Final Death. This also supports the theory that Veddartha was not really destroyed despite what the Ventrue clan elders think.

                        What do you guys think?

                        That assertion depends on the matter of one taking the Temporis bloodline's claim of being the direct, pure descendants of Ilyes as actual truth in the first place, in fact. And apparently many posters have said essentially the same in different words. Oh well, it happens.

                        Anyway, the matter of Antediluvians existing, destroyed or not and etc can be something of a quite slippery slope, as truth be told what separates mechanically a clan of a bloodline. What evidence does one have beside hearsay and a sufficiently puisant kindred with the right discipline set?

                        What happens if a 5th or 4th gen of decides to learn some bloodline signature discipline and develop it to levels beyond anyone else's ken?
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 08-25-2020, 11:15 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Wait what was up with Veddartha and Ventrue?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                            Wait what was up with Veddartha and Ventrue?
                            Their Facebook status is "Its complicated."

                            Ok, the short version is that Veddartha has been listed as the sire of both Mithras (4th generation) and the sire of Maltheas (5th generation). So the assumption was that Mithras comitted diablerie. However a later book listed Mithras sire as "The Ventrue Antediluvian"

                            So theories are that Veddartha, meaning "Wise one" is an archaic title for the eldest Ventrue or some sort of title. Or that the original Veddartha met final death, and the Ventrue or a Ventrue covered it up. So there were a 4rth generation kindred assumed the name and mantle of the Antediluvian.

                            This fits the tales of the Ventrue Antediluvian being destroyed, and Maltheas being sire almost two thousand years later than Mithras.
                            Last edited by Trollroot; 08-25-2020, 11:43 AM.

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                            • #15
                              I just use Veddartha as the Ventrue Ante and ignore the part about Maltheas. I barely even know who Maltheas is lol.


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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