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  • #76
    I blame the True Brujah for these timeline issues. Well, them, their Great race of Yith masters and the Time War in general.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

      Forgive me if this has been pointed out before but Veddartha has a third childe, older than the others. Balthazar. Fought the Baali centuries before Mithras was embraced. Sire of Anushin Rawan and Ea Adapa. Anyone got a generation on any of them?
      Balthazar appeared in only two sources, Dark Ages Companion and Encyclopaedia Vampirica (semi-canon since it was translated from the german Vampire line by Feder und Schwert). He is a childe of [Ventrue] and most probably the eldest of them all, it's a shame he wasn't mentioned in the retconned of the other 4th generation Ventrue of DA Companion V20. Before this revision, the original childer were Balthazar, Medon, Mithras, Alexander and Antonius.

      Both Anushin Rawan and Ea Adapa has to be considered 5th generation and most probably contemporaries of Arakur and Tiamat.

      - Saga

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      • #78
        Is there a huge difference between a 4th Gen who’s maybe three or four thousand years old and one who’s a lot older? (Tiamat has to be at least 3000 years old if she’s the vampire the Babylonian goddess Tiamat is based on.)


        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post
          Is there a huge difference between a 4th Gen who’s maybe three or four thousand years old and one who’s a lot older? (Tiamat has to be at least 3000 years old if she’s the vampire the Babylonian goddess Tiamat is based on.)
          Tiamat is AT LEAST 6000 years old, her profile is in Diablerize London

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          • #80
            Then she’s almost unimaginably old. Way older than Babylon.


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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            • #81
              Actually Tiamat is more likely to be between 4000 and 4200 years old given that in her backstory its mentioned that she was taken to the ziggarut of ur prior to her embrace, which is believe to have been built in the 21st century BCE.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Harbinger1999 View Post
                Actually Tiamat is more likely to be between 4000 and 4200 years old given that in her backstory its mentioned that she was taken to the ziggarut of ur prior to her embrace, which is believe to have been built in the 21st century BCE.
                That makes more sense. That’s about when the Babylonian civilization started.


                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Harbinger1999 View Post
                  Actually Tiamat is more likely to be between 4000 and 4200 years old given that in her backstory its mentioned that she was taken to the ziggarut of ur prior to her embrace, which is believe to have been built in the 21st century BCE.
                  If you want the history of the WoD to match the history of the real world then the dates of the embraces of a lot of 4th gens make little to no sense. Fortunately the WoD is a fictional universe so you can easily change things to make sense. For example what if the deluge really was the moment reality started to coalesce in its current form after the end of the war between demons and angels? What if time was "malleable" for a period and it stretched back and forth for a while making it possible for a lot of things to happen that make no sense for "official history"?

                  That's how I dealt with the inconstincencies in the timeline of several WoD games making them work together. The only other option is to just adapt everything to real world history but I feel like it's a lot of effort for little to no payback and it's something that even diminishes the possibilities for fun in a chronicle devoted to uncover the secret history of the world.
                  Last edited by Haquim; 09-04-2020, 05:37 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                    Is there a huge difference between a 4th Gen who’s maybe three or four thousand years old and one who’s a lot older? (Tiamat has to be at least 3000 years old if she’s the vampire the Babylonian goddess Tiamat is based on.)
                    Overall experience and discipline sets, mostly. Montano and Gratiano are separated by a couple thousand years and there are things that Montano can do with Obtenebration that Gratiano cannot due to the age gap.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                      Is there a huge difference between a 4th Gen who’s maybe three or four thousand years old and one who’s a lot older? (Tiamat has to be at least 3000 years old if she’s the vampire the Babylonian goddess Tiamat is based on.)
                      As a general rule, yes. The older the vampire the more powerful it is. That said, not all vampires are created equal, some are simply more skilled, intelligent, adaptable than others. Take ur-Shulgi, one of the most powerful 4th generation vampires ever presented. It's clearly stated his embrace was special and on top of that he is a second city vampire which means he's unfathomably old.

                      On the other hand you may have vampires like Critias, a 5th gen methuselah whose stats are clearly mediocre, which can only be justified in game with the idea he did not spend a lot of time trying to improve himself, as the unlifestyle of any vampires will influence their abilities and power level. It doesn't matter if you are 3 thousand years old when you spent them playing chess or in torpor.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Harbinger1999 View Post
                        Actually Tiamat is more likely to be between 4000 and 4200 years old given that in her backstory its mentioned that she was taken to the ziggarut of ur prior to her embrace, which is believe to have been built in the 21st century BCE.
                        The WoD has always been contradictory when it comes to reconciling real history with historical mentions in its games. Often this is because the writer simply didn't know any better and was incorrect when depicting history. But sometimes this is probably a result of history in the WoD simply being different. While I think historical accuracy should be attempted in most cases, I am much more willing to accept divergences in the ancient past (which is much less documented and more unknown) than more recent eras.

                        In the instance of Tiamat and other extremely ancient Methusalehs, I'm more willing to go with the way it was originally written than try to change things retroactively to fit history as we know it now. The more important thing about Tiamat is her very ancient origins than the actual time when the ziggurat was built. Besides, it's easy to say that there was some other temple or building being used than the actual ziggurat if that is really crucial to someone. But I also think it's cool to say that the ziggurat of Ur was in fact in existence at the time in the WoD, and that human archaeologists either got it wrong, or that in the WoD they've confirmed it was built thousands of years earlier (which is true in that world, if not our own).

                        While I do think historical mentions should be made as accurate as possible, in the end the WoD's history is only inspired by real history, not the real thing. Some fudging is allowed provided it fits good Gothic tropes (and preferably with it being mentioned that things were different so it doesn't confuse anyone, or cause a negative reaction by people who do know).

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                          The WoD has always been contradictory when it comes to reconciling real history with historical mentions in its games. Often this is because the writer simply didn't know any better and was incorrect when depicting history. But sometimes this is probably a result of history in the WoD simply being different. While I think historical accuracy should be attempted in most cases, I am much more willing to accept divergences in the ancient past (which is much less documented and more unknown) than more recent eras.

                          In the instance of Tiamat and other extremely ancient Methusalehs, I'm more willing to go with the way it was originally written than try to change things retroactively to fit history as we know it now. The more important thing about Tiamat is her very ancient origins than the actual time when the ziggurat was built. Besides, it's easy to say that there was some other temple or building being used than the actual ziggurat if that is really crucial to someone. But I also think it's cool to say that the ziggurat of Ur was in fact in existence at the time in the WoD, and that human archaeologists either got it wrong, or that in the WoD they've confirmed it was built thousands of years earlier (which is true in that world, if not our own).

                          While I do think historical mentions should be made as accurate as possible, in the end the WoD's history is only inspired by real history, not the real thing. Some fudging is allowed provided it fits good Gothic tropes (and preferably with it being mentioned that things were different so it doesn't confuse anyone, or cause a negative reaction by people who do know).
                          I agree with you. In historical romances history always comes second to romance, and Gothic literature is descended from and inspired by romance novels. It’s great when history clicks perfectly with your game; when it doesn’t, you fix the history a little.


                          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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