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Who is the Matriarch of Nosferatu?

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  • Who is the Matriarch of Nosferatu?

    If, I say if, this mysterious figure who escaped from blood bound and founded the whole Nos clan does exist, who is she(he?)? Does Baba Yaga have anything to do with her? If she is non-exist, then what’s up with Nos origin? It’s… a bit messy

    I don’t know much about this clan, but IIRC there are at least three versions of Nos origin – 1st and Revised Clanbook, Lore of Clans. WW seems to imply Baba Yaga IS Matriarch during Revised. But in V20, or specifically, LoC, that woman near the river is not Baba, obviously


    Tip: The Page 74 of Encyclopaedia Vampirica also has a Timeline, concerning a female 4th gens Nos who embraced Angiwar. I’m very interested in it. What’s her relationship with Matriarch? Or she IS the true Matriarch? Does the other stuff have more about her?

  • #2
    Baba Yaga is apparently NOT the Matriarch despite her making perfect sense. Some have even tried to reconcile this by making Baba Yaga a Niktuku.

    But I think she's the best candidate for such.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      In Libellus Sanguinis 4 they propose the theory that Clan Nosferatu isn't descended from 1 matriarch, but 3 founders. The Matriarch in Western Europe, Baba Yaga in Eastern Europe and a mysterious third one in the Middle East. With each lineage sharing certain common physical traits.
      Last edited by Malkavian87; 08-31-2020, 08:07 AM.

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      • #4
        Speculation only: Could be Baba Yaga plus a couple of early diablerists. Could also be Absimilliard sired someone before the Nictuku.

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        • #5
          Baba Yaga/the Matriarch is unthinkably old, and like most (near-)Noddist myths, there are many different versions of the tale. That's how I explain the lack of consistent in canon, anyways. Nosferatu in my games have batted around the following stories:

          * Baba Yaga is the "bottleneck" from which the entire clan descends. The Matriarch is simply the Iron Hag by another name. This story is most popular among Nosferatu who are her direct descendants.

          * Baba Yaga and the Matriarch are two such "bottlenecks." The Matriarch was actually Embraced before Baba Yaga, during the time of the Second City, and was not cursed with hideousness until Caine returned to lay down his judgment upon the Antediluvians.

          * As above, except the Matriarch was Embraced during the First City, and is technically an antediluvian (having survived the Great Flood), even if she is not an Antediluvian (a member of the Third Generation). This story is most popular among sewer rats with an axe to grind against Baba Yaga's descendants.

          * As above, except Baba Yaga is a Nictuku. She has no descendants: the Matriarch is Clan Nosferatu's sole bottleneck. Many Kindred in Eastern Europe take great issue with this story. This is generally one of the least believed myths.

          * As above, except Baba Yaga is a Nictuku who does have descendants. Many Nosferatu don't like it for the fact that it opens the door to the Nictuku having childer of their own. Some try to explain it away as Baba Yaga having been blood bound to her sire and inducted into the Nictuku after she sired her first childer.

          * There are three such "bottlenecks," as Malkavian87 states. This story was most popular during the Middle Ages. It gave the sewer rats in every region their own founder to claim descent from. A few more optimistic Nosferatu hope it means they have three progenitors who can help the struggle against the Nictuku instead of just one or two. Most of the clan is not optimistic.

          * As above, but the third founder's identity is not a mystery: they were a small child who may or may not have been Vasilia (see the above mess on whether "normal" fourth-generation Nosferatu can become Nictuku). These three founders are collectively known as the Child, the Matriarch, and the Crone, in accord with the maiden-mother-crone archetype. A few minority scholars claim that Baba Yaga was not the Crone.

          * As above, but the Child is native to the Americas, not the Middle East: the Matriarch is ancestress to the sewer rats there. This story is most popular among sewer rats of indigenous descent who like to point out that Europe wasn't the entire world.

          * As any of the above versions, except the Matriarch and the Child (or just the Matriarch) were childer of Baba Yaga who committed diablerie unthinkably long ago. That's how you can have multiple fourth generation ancestors but only one "bottleneck" between Absimiliard and the rest of the clan.

          * Did we forget about Yima, the
          Nosferatu who was spared Caine's curse for his upright character? He may or may not have been a "bottleneck" ancestor to the rest of the clan; some stories place him in the Middle East, others in Africa as ancestor to the Guruhi, and others as a methuselah who simply never sired.


          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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          • #6
            I know that lore questions that have either no answer or multiple conflicting answers drive some folks to distraction, but one of the reasons I enjoy them is that the added air of lost history helps to sell the age of the world. It's possible for there to be no one old enough to remember some answers, and any ancients who do remember are well hidden.

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            • #7
              I think the out of universe explanation is making Baba Yaga the Matriarch results in a somewhat silly plot becoming incredibly central to the Clan's Mythos.

              I'm all for it, though.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                I think the out of universe explanation is making Baba Yaga the Matriarch results in a somewhat silly plot becoming incredibly central to the Clan's Mythos.

                I'm all for it, though.

                Honestly, i've always been in favor of the Nictuku as bogeymen and little more, a "simple & quick" answer for why the Nos, so proud of their hiding skills and information-gathering, might sometimes be caught with the pants down and lose whole warrens. Because pointing to an elusive, mythic threat is sometimes better than admiting your people can screw up, and do screw up, big time, in a regular basis.

                Not treating them as fact also spares me having to come up with some convoluted explanation about where the 4th gen Nos Mictlantehcutli diablerized came from.

                Not that i care overly much either way, as i'm one to butcher and mutilate canon in sometimes quite cavalier forms on a regular basis.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 09-13-2020, 04:29 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                  Honestly, i've always been in favor of the Nictuku as bogeymen and little more, a "simple & quick" answer for why the Nos, so proud of their hiding skills and information-gathering, might sometimes be caught with the pants down and lose whole warrens. Because pointing to an elusive, mythic threat is sometimes better than admiting your people can screw up, and do screw up, big time, in a regular basis.

                  Not treating them as fact also spares me having to come up with some convoluted explaination about where the 4th gen Nos Mictlantehcutli diablerized came from.
                  I always thought there was a pretty convenient potential explanation there. Guy was a diablerist himself.
                  Last edited by False Epiphany; 09-13-2020, 04:30 PM.


                  Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                    Honestly, i've always been in favor of the Nictuku as bogeymen and little more, a "simple & quick" answer for why the Nos, so proud of their hiding skills and information-gathering, might sometimes be caught with the pants down and lose whole warrens. Because pointing to an elusive, mythic threat is sometimes better than admiting your people can screw up, and do screw up, big time, in a regular basis.

                    Not treating them as fact also spares me having to come up with some convoluted explanation about where the 4th gen Nos Mictlantehcutli diablerized came from.

                    Not that i care overly much either way, as i'm one to butcher and mutilate canon in sometimes quite cavalier forms on a regular basis.
                    Is Michi a Drowned?

                    Did the Anarchs actually kill him?

                    And maybe he actually diablerized a Niktuku!



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

                      I always thought there was a pretty convenient potential explanation there. Guy was a diablerist himself.
                      Possible certainly, but miss a chance to cause polemic with the canon fetishists?! NEVER!!!

                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      Is Michi a Drowned?

                      Did the Anarchs actually kill him?

                      And maybe he actually diablerized a Niktuku!
                      Just between us... my version of the Harbingers of Skulls (based on the original blurb about their houding of the Pisanob) are what BJD would call a Drowned Legacy, dedicated to Mitclan, that yes, did consume a Nictuku, that also happened to be the founder of one of the Gehenna Cults in Elysium: the Elder Wars.

                      The ancient is also involved with the Zapatistas.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 09-20-2020, 07:06 PM.

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                      • #12
                        So I was reading, and I came across the story of Angiwar. Fifth Generation Nosferatu, same age as Baba Yaga. His unnamed Sire had pretty much the same story as the matriarch and close to Baba Yagas. Except she was active more than a thousand years before Baba Yaga was sired.

                        So I got to thinking...:

                        What if Absimilliard keeps doing this shit?

                        I mean, you got woman after woman with basically the same story. Theres normally some guy with a pattern of abuse behind that. Maybe he can't control himself. He sees a beautiful woman, he just has to take her, torment her and embrace her, ruining the beauty? Eventually he kills her, but now and then, one of them manage to escape? Maybe the occasional overdeveloped Obfuscate lets one slip, or maybe Absimilliards hunters pride compel him to leave the prey a small chance of escape.

                        The guy is still trying to kill his first ex for leaving him, fifteen thousand years after it happened. It would not be out of character.

                        So there would be a number of Fourth Generation female Nosferatu with backstories that closely match, simply because their sire has a pattern, and they got good reason to just keep a low profile. And they get conflated?
                        Last edited by Trollroot; 09-20-2020, 05:42 PM.

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