Gods and Vampires?

[Rock113]

In VtM some gods are vampires actually (Mithras, Set, Osiris, etc.), some “gods” are faked by vampires (Shaitan, etc.). I wonder if there’s a list or thread discusses this? Or do you know more guys like this?

And: I wonder if the Odin hated by Get of Fenris is the same guy in Wolves of Sea, a Gangrel? I think it’s not

[CTPhipps]

In VtM some gods are vampires actually (Mithras, Set, Osiris, etc.), some “gods” are faked by vampires (Shaitan, etc.). I wonder if there’s a list or thread discusses this? Or do you know more guys like this?

And: I wonder if the Odin hated by Get of Fenris is the same guy in Wolves of Sea, a Gangrel? I think it’s not

My view on the subject is that some vampires view themselves as gods but all vampires who are gods are just vampires impersonating deities. The gods of the Earth are mysterious and powerful beings that can empower human faith but Kindred cults are just that, cults.

Mind you, I do state that Mithras may very well have been a demigod that was the honest-to-God son of a god before being Embraced but he's still "just" a vampire.

They're no more gods than the Gould from Stargate SG-1.

[Pleiades]

god isn't a splat or a race, it's a title,
anything, including a mere mortal can be a god

now, what splat is each god? who came first? who impersonated who? is unclear (cause white wolf)

shaitan is a known impersonator, that doesn't make him any less of a god

[Eldagusto]

In VtM some gods are vampires actually (Mithras, Set, Osiris, etc.), some “gods” are faked by vampires (Shaitan, etc.). I wonder if there’s a list or thread discusses this? Or do you know more guys like this?

And: I wonder if the Odin hated by Get of Fenris is the same guy in Wolves of Sea, a Gangrel? I think it’s not

Multiple vampires are said to have taken the semblance of Odin and other gods and the Allfather is a charlatan that diablerized his way up to 5th gen.

The Vargr of the Norse lands recall their history descending from Cainarl who was made into a vampire by Odin, thus indicating the original Odin wasn't a vampire, or that Cainarl wasn't the first vampire and the gods were for some reason.

Fenrir recall two separate beings with the mantle of Wotan, one in the super ancient past and a reincarnation in the more reasonable past.

We also know two ancient Vampires fought for territory in ancient Ireland either imitating or inspiring the Dagda and the Morrigan.

Then we have Samedi...



And a vampire who imitated Mictlan.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

My take is the vampires are usually faking it - they usually rip off the name of a god and some of the vampires manage to get away with this for ages. Such as Mithras. There probably was (and might still be) a Celestine Mithras, or the actual god. Mithras the vampire just took the name of the god, and eventually thought he was a god. But they are not the same creature. The same goes for Odin.

Set is possibly a different case, as the vampire at least was an utter liar but it is difficult to tell at this remove.

[Gurkhal]

I also tend to think that humans worship or venerated a god and then the vampires comes in to try and take advantage of it.

It seems to me that corruption is almost inherent to vampires, them being more powerful and having advantages over humans, and so it follows known courses that they would corrupt and use things that normal people hold dear to the vampires' advantage

The name "Baali" used by those specific vampires seem like an utter perversion when looking at the character of Baal in the Baal Cycle.

EDITED: Fixed some weird English

[Lian]

My take is the vampires are usually faking it - they usually rip off the name of a god and some of the vampires manage to get away with this for ages. Such as Mithras. There probably was (and might still be) a Celestine Mithras, or the actual god. Mithras the vampire just took the name of the god, and eventually thought he was a god. But they are not the same creature. The same goes for Odin.

Set is possibly a different case, as the vampire at least was an utter liar but it is difficult to tell at this remove.

I'm just going to point out the Pooka claim and have treasures that back up that the Egyptian Gods were all Pooka thus the whole "animal head" thing. What we think of as Set or Mithras is a mix of things that have been brought together by a culture. Mithras the vampire.. did ride the cult of Mithras but the Cult of Mithras seems to be have been "made up" almost whole heartedly by romans around the turn o the C.E. and have no connection with Mithras the Sun God of Persia.

Given we know that IRL it wouldn't be too much of a a stretch to argue The Cult of Mithras may have been constructed in part MIthras the Vampire. On the other hand there are still Celestial Chorus members who follow the Cult as was laid out in ancient times and is lost irl who see it as a path to the One. These are not necissarily a choice of Either OR here. They Mithras the vampire may have tried to manipulate something he couldn't quite control.

Odin is probably equally complicated as the Odin we have now is not the Odin worshiped by the vikings but the records by Christians who had long since been converted. What was the living oral tradition probably contained aspect of potenially multiple things.. Fairy Lords, Vampires, Celestial entities.. that you could meet 3 or more Odins in a bar and each being True makes things complicated.

Ultimately Religion changes over time. And Vampires are master manipulators or at least that's what they claim. So hollowing out a Faith an putting yourself up there wouldn't be unheard of...but its hard to tell what "came first" and if that even matters.

[Rock113]

To be honest I think vampires always fake gods. Spirits of named gods (most are Incarna level I think) will crush down those vampires utterly. Think about spirit “Mithras”, “Set” or even “Shiva”...

[Undead rabbit]

Mmmmh yes and no. Very powerful Meths tend to be also powerful blood mages, and blood magic can do astonishing things to spirits. Odin was capable of putting the muzzle on Great Fenris, Set banished the Silent Striders from their lands, and Baba Yaga was capable of summoning one of the Wyrm Talons into existence, Menele's magic awoke an immense spirit of fire that destroyed Pompei and so on.
Even vampires like Mithras, who lack blood magic, surrounds themselves with "high priests" like Cretheus, who had Thauma 8, and Cretheus was capable of binding spirits and demons to his will.

[Rock113]

Mmmmh yes and no. Very powerful Meths tend to be also powerful blood mages, and blood magic can do astonishing things to spirits. Odin was capable of putting the muzzle on Great Fenris, Set banished the Silent Striders from their lands, and Baba Yaga was capable of summoning one of the Wyrm Talons into existence, Menele's magic awoke an immense spirit of fire that destroyed Pompei and so on.
Even vampires like Mithras, who lack blood magic, surrounds themselves with "high priests" like Cretheus, who had Thauma 8, and Cretheus was capable of binding spirits and demons to his will.

Sorry but we don’t know if the Odin in Fenris legend is the same vampiric guy. And to be honest I think Baba Yaga is confused,

A World of Rage says she is greater than a Maeljin Incarna (aka. A 4th gens like her can crush a Maeljin... the greatest servant of Wyrm)
She bound Talon of Wyrm when she was a SORCERER
...

Set did banish Striders, but just that. Setites did much more horrible thing to Bubasti, another kind of Fera. They slaughtered all cat kin but ghouled and imprisoned several... if they knew animal kin was the core of a shapeshifter tribe then the Bubasti would decease long long ago... thank you, Shu-Horus, the greatest Striders

[Pleiades]

what's the problem with Baba Yaga being greater than an Incarna?

[CTPhipps]

To be honest I think vampires always fake gods. Spirits of named gods (most are Incarna level I think) will crush down those vampires utterly. Think about spirit “Mithras”, “Set” or even “Shiva”...

To be fair, in Mage at least, Spirits aren't actually appearing as gods usually. If you're an Order of Hermes mage and go to meet an Incarnae of Jupiter then you may see the Archangel Michael, Zeus, Odin, or other patriarchal male authority figure.

And they will act the part because your unconscious is filling in a lot of "What Man Was Not Meant To Know."

what's the problem with Baba Yaga being greater than an Incarna?

Mages can control gods and spirits with true names. It's an annoyance to demons and gods both.

Magic is the ultimate cheat codes of the universe.

Blame the fact that avatars are fragments of the Pure Ones and One, which is the Spirit of Everything (God? Perhaps--or maybe just the closest to it in the setting)

[Undead rabbit]

what's the problem with Baba Yaga being greater than an Incarna?

Even more, this is stated by a Werewolf Sourcebook, not by a vampire sourcebook.
The war against Baba Yaga was big stuff in Werewolf, one of the biggest metaplot thing in the line. It was the most important thing happened to Europe's werewolves, and the stepping stone Margrave Konietzko used to challenge the Silver Fangs dominance in the Garou Nation. The great alliance between Get of Fenris, Black Furies and Shadow Lords that is reshaping eastern europe was made to create a front against the Hag.

So yeah, by the werewolf's metaplot (and, note, not by Vampire's metaplot) Baba Yaga has been bigger stuff than the Maeljin.

[Penelope]

This is a really awesome discussion. I think all you guys make some good points. And I’m not entirely convinced Baba Yaga is really dead.

[Haquim]

Vampires are not gods in any sense of the word. They sometimes manage to create cults that revere them as such but more often hijack existing cults portraying themselves as gods for a subsect of mortals. That is actually the case with Mithras. Check out DA Mage: Grimoire for confirmation.